Forced to kill by a Grama

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  • January 29, 2014 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #612004
    MDG
    Participant

    In today’s daf, Yoma 82, it brings the sevara that one can’t kill under threat of death because we don’t say that one life is more important than the other (your blood is not redder than an other’s).

    I hope we never have this case Lemaaseh, but what if the proposed method was to kill indirectly? For example, some forces under threat of death: to take away the ladder from the pit and leave the guy stuck down there OR to pull the plug on the machine. What is the case then? Is this the same thing as directly killing or is there and loophole?

    MODS: I propose that we have a “Daf Yomi” section.

    January 29, 2014 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #1001567
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Interesting. The Svara of Mai Chazis still applies but there is no Chiyuv Misa.

    January 29, 2014 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm #1001568
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I mean, the svara doesn’t seem to be related to the issur retzicha, so my guess is it shouldn’t matter.

    January 29, 2014 11:58 pm at 11:58 pm #1001569
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    But on the other hand, without any Issur at all it would be Me’abed Atzmo. However, Grama is definitely Assur and is Chayav Bidei Shamayim.

    January 30, 2014 3:22 am at 3:22 am #1001570
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Would it be considered ????????? ?????? and therefore ???? ??? ??????

    January 30, 2014 3:47 am at 3:47 am #1001571
    TheGoq
    Participant

    Who did your grandma want you to kill and why?

    January 30, 2014 3:59 am at 3:59 am #1001572
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Goq, we’re in Yoma, not Bubba Mitzia.

    January 30, 2014 6:56 am at 6:56 am #1001573
    Little Froggie
    Member

    Lashon of Rashi seems to say that it is connected to issur retzicha. So it would change things.

    January 30, 2014 8:09 am at 8:09 am #1001574
    Sam2
    Participant

    Isn’t this a B’feirush Tosfos (in either Sanhedrin or Yevamos) that letting someone throw you on a baby is Muttar if the other option is being Moser Nefesh? I thought Tosfos is clear that Grama is okay here.

    January 30, 2014 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #1001575
    TheGoq
    Participant

    LOL Daas that was hilarious.

    January 30, 2014 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #1001576
    Little Froggie
    Member

    Sam2, that’s (karka olam) a far call from a maase grama.

    January 30, 2014 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #1001577
    MDG
    Participant

    “Isn’t this a B’feirush Tosfos (in either Sanhedrin or Yevamos) that letting someone throw you on a baby is Muttar if the other option is being Moser Nefesh”

    I asked the question to a Lamdan visiting here from Jerusalem. In an instant he pulled out Sanhedrin 74B and pointed in Tos’ to where the lines get larger. He read to me from that Tos’ and came up with the following conclusion. The reason for letting yourself get thrown on a baby – and not get killed – is because you are passive. Had you been active, you are not allowed to cause another death even under threat of death. This is his svara: had there been a greater Chiddush – like doing something active, Tos’ would have said it. But Tos’ went only as far as to say passive is Muttar in a case of Yehareig V’al Yaavor

    Actually, Rashi (82a very bottom) hints to that in commenting on Ariyot. He says that women are not obligated to give up their lives in a case of forced Ervah because of passivity (karka olam).

    January 30, 2014 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #1001578
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I agree with LF and MDG.

    Thank you, Goq.

    January 30, 2014 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1001579
    Sam2
    Participant

    Tosfos on Yevamos 53a-b words it a little differently. His reasoning there might even include a Grama and not just Karka Olam.

    January 30, 2014 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #1001580
    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    yup. maskim to the lamdan. a person being pushed is the other guys koach and lichorh wud have no shaychus to grama

    January 31, 2014 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #1001581
    dafbiyun
    Participant

    Allowing yourself to be thrown on a tinok is neither a grama nor karka olom. Rather, it is an act attributable soley to the thrower- with you being used as a “rock”. The reason It is important not to call it karka olom is that according to the Tur and Rambam there seems to be no heter of karka olom. However, here, where you are not participating in and play no role in the avaira, everyone would agree there would be no din of yeharaig v’al yavor

    February 3, 2014 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #1001582
    YW Moderator-💯
    Moderator

    MDG’s proposal has been implemented. A big Yasher Koach to the Editor, and to MDG for the idea.

    February 3, 2014 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #1001583
    MDG
    Participant

    Thank you

    February 3, 2014 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #1001584
    MDG
    Participant

    “Allowing yourself to be thrown on a tinok is neither a grama…”

    I didn’t get into the detail, but the Lamdan did not agree my original example being a Grama either.

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