Forcing chumrot on others

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  • #1250788

    Avi K
    Participant

    Does a soldier who is makpid on a mehadrin hechsher have the right to insist that his comrades also be makpid

    #1251003

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Avi K,

    Does a soldier who is makpid on a mehadrin hechsher have the right to insist that his comrades also be makpid

    No, but if an army truly wants a community that sincerely holds by certain standards to send their children into that army with an atmosphere of mutual respect, wouldn’t it be a good idea to accommodate those standards, or work openly and respectfully with the community leadership to find mutually agreeable solutions?

    #1251016

    Meno
    Participant

    I don’t understand.

    Would the question be different if you replaced the words “soldier” and “comrades” with “person” and “friends”?

    #1251042

    mw13
    Participant

    AviK:
    Does a soldier who is makpid on a mehadrin hechsher have the right to insist that his comrades also be makpid

    No, but he does have a right to insist that he be served food with an appropriate hechsher.

    Slightly different question:
    Does a soldier who is makpid to go to the army have any right to try to force his chumrah upon others?

    #1251065

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Army is about everyone being equal

    When you are in the Foxhole and being shot at, the bullets being shot at you dont ask if you are Makpid Chalav Yisroel, Beis Yosef or even if you eat Kosher.

    Part of army training is getting people to follow this philosophy. You have to have the thinking your fellow soldier is your comrade and equal otherwise you cannot fight together and when one of you is hurt, you have to help your wounded comrade

    #1251066

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The army is about about getting everyone to realize they are all in this together

    When you are in the foxhole being shot at, the bullets dont care what you eat.

    You never know when you will need the complete help of your fellow company member.

    #1251075

    Chortkov
    Participant

    ZD: Your rationale for not being makpid on Kashrus is to promote interunit unity?!

    #1251084

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    zahavasdad,

    The Army is about everyone being equal

    Respecting diversity and treating people as equals are certainly not mutually exclusive concepts. In fact, forcing some in a unit to compromise on their values but not others is not treating people equally.

    When you are in the Foxhole and being shot at, the bullets being shot at you dont ask if you are Makpid Chalav Yisroel, Beis Yosef or even if you eat Kosher.

    And in the U.S. army, the bullets don’t ask if you keep kosher and go to shul on Shabbos, or if you eat fish on Fridays and go to mass on Sundays. Are you opposed to the U.S. army providing kosher food to Jewish soldiers, or allowing Catholic soldiers leave to attend mass?

    Part of army training is getting people to follow this philosophy.

    Training which should actually include respect for diversity, not squashing it.

    You have to have the thinking your fellow soldier is your comrade and equal otherwise you cannot fight together and when one of you is hurt, you have to help your wounded comrade

    What is the relevance of this sentence?

    #1251087

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I wouldn’t be surprised if the “chumrot” the army isn’t makpid on are basic halachos.

    #1251094

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “When you are in the foxhole being shot at, the bullets dont care what you eat.”

    So apparently someone does not believe In hashgocha pratis.

    #1251095

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    DY +1 Most Rabbanim I know don’t consider mehadrin to be a chumra. I am under the distinct impression that many or most of the mashgichim for non-mehadrin hashgachos feel the same way.

    #1251098

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “The Army is about everyone being equal”

    No, that is not true, the Army is about listening to the commands of those in command.

    Command is clearly not equal, in most armies, the senior command does not get anywhere near the foxholes.

    #1251119

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “The Army is about everyone being equal”

    That is precisely the problem that the Torah world has with the army.

    #1251116

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The army can be diverse until you get in that Foxhole and you have to be prepared to be in that foxhole

    #1251147

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    nishtdayngesheft,

    So apparently someone does not believe In hashgocha pratis.

    I didn’t assume that from zahavasdad’s post, but your point brought an interesting question to my mind. I’ve learned that in some cases, when a plague was unleashed, the destruction caused was, from our perspective at least, indiscriminate, meaning that both reshaim and tzadikkim in its path would both face danger from it. On the other hand, when the officers declare that those who have started but not completed the acts of building a house, redeeming a vineyard, and marrying a woman should depart, the officer continues and says that those who are fearful should leave. Rashi, quoting R’ Yose the Galilean, comments that the fearful man’s fear arises from knowing that he has sinned and may not merit divine protection, so he leaves with the others, so that other soldiers do not recognize him as a sinner. This presumes that the weapons of heated battle do not cause indiscriminate death.

    #1251194

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    That is precisely the problem that the Torah world has with the army.

    And that I think is the crux of the problem, In general society there is some effort for everyone to mix together, However in some communities they do not wish this. Its not just the army, There was some school in israel where they didnt want Sefardim because they had different customs and the outcry was either the Charedim were racist or that the hashkfa of the Sephardim would not have worked with the Yeshivish velt Hashgafa.

    #1251199

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    zahavasdad,

    The army can be diverse until you get in that Foxhole and you have to be prepared to be in that foxhole

    So how does providing a Jew with mehadrin kosher food affect foxhole prep?

    #1251248

    golfer
    Participant

    I’m not following.
    Yehudis and Judy are good friends. They help each other out often. They have long conversations. One day Judy says, “Would you like to join me for cheesecake and a latte at the new cafe?” Yehudis says, “Sorry, I’d love to join you for a latte sometime, but the new cafe does not serve chalav Yisrael and my husband and I have taken this new chumra on ourselves.” A while later Judy says, “Yehudis, my husband and I would love to invite your family for Kiddush on Shavuos. I will be preparing only chalav Yisrael dishes for your enjoyment.”
    So what’s the problem?

    But that’s not why I’m here.
    I’m here because I stopped in and saw this word in your post Zdad:
    Hashgafa
    I’m sure it’s an innocent typo that snuck in.
    In case not, the word is hashKafa, with a kooff as in kugel and Kiddush (and not a gimmel as in hashGacha).
    It’s from a lashon of looking. It means outlook (or weltanschauung, if you’re a chassid of Rav Shamshon R”H ZTZ”L) and there are many examples in Tanach (“Va’yashkef…”).

    (Now if the Mods had activated the feature we suggested a while back allowing us to edit each other’s posts, I could have solved the problem with a simple click of the mouse!)

    #1251536

    Nechomah
    Participant

    I think even the machmirim recognize that when there is necessity to be in a foxhole, it is pikuach nefesh, which is docheh hakol and would not be machmir on mehadrin kashrus. But the vast majority of the time, there is no pikuach nefesh involved in army duty and the fact that they are not willing to provide mehadrin kashrus to soldiers who request it seems to me to be “lehachis”.

    #1251582

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Golfer & Nechomah – +1

    #1251677

    zaltzvasser
    Participant

    troll thread

    #1251727

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    I don’t think people are eating while bullets are flying in the fox-hole, so what does this point have to do with getting mehadrin food while on the base?

    #1251756

    Chortkov
    Participant

    troll thread

    Zaltvasser – I don’t know how long you’ve been around for (I can’t see your user profile page), but let me give a you little distinction I’ve picked up over the years. There are three types of controversial posters:

    A “troll thread” is designed to antagonize people.

    This is more of a “rant”, in which someone has a chip on his shoulder or unhealthy obsession about a specific subject, and keeps repeating the same things in hope that someone will listen. Often enough, the post isn’t designed for someone to listen, but rather to display his rigidity and to prove that his position hasn’t changed, regardless of the numerous discussions that he has had in the past, and despite the numerous sources disproving his points.

    A third type – “Controversial Topics” – is designed to inspire a discussion (or in some cases, an argument) about a topic likely to bring participants from various points of view into a lively spat.

    #1251794

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I dont think anyone answered the original question. The question was not, should the army provide a level of kashrus that satisfies all its members. The question is:

    “Does a soldier who is makpid on a mehadrin hechsher have the right to insist that his comrades also be makpid”

    The question is not at the institutional level but at the personal level, IE, in the barracks where for example they share a toaster oven. may one soldier insist his comrades do the same.

    I’ll wait for Avik to come back and comment.

    #1251799

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The question is not at the institutional level but at the personal level, IE, in the barracks where for example they share a toaster oven. may one soldier insist his comrades do the same.

    No, that would be a case of insisting that they accommodate his chumrot.

    An example of forcing his chumros on them would be if he didn’t let them have their own toaster oven in addition to his.

    #1251803

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    WTP -lol.

    My first thought was that you were being funny, but then I realized that you are right. The fact that people act one way in a foxhole has nothing to do with what the standards of kashrus should be in the army the rest of the time – and the vast majority of the time, soldiers are not in foxholes. Actually, most or many soldiers are not even combat soldiers.

    #1251807

    Chortkov
    Participant

    may one soldier insist his comrades do the same.

    No, that would be a case of insisting that they accommodate his chumrot.

    I don’t think he can insist that his comrades accommodate his chumros; he can insist the Army accommodate him.

    #1251894

    Avi K
    Participant

    Lilmod, which Torah world. Those who separate themselves from the public?

    MW, it is not a chumra. It is a Torah obligation.

    Golfer, you cannot extrapolate from two individuals to the army. Sometimes because of exigencies it is not possible to cater to everyone’s whims. Sometimes it is even necessary to rely on leniencies. Rav Asher Weiss has mentioned on several occasions that he has used leniencies when paskening for the IDF that he would not use for civilians. BTW, Rav Moshe once ate at a kiddush made by an average baal bayit. When someone asked him about he said “ED echad ne’eman b’isurim. The Halacha allows me to eat. It does not allow me to insult someone”. For that matter, when a bachur asked if he could eat by relatives who use Rabbanut hechsherim, Rav Neuwirth replied that it is not treif. See Pitchei Tesuva YD 116:10 that according to some opinions a person who is machmir on something on which the Amoraim were not is an apikoros. On a lighter side, the Kotzker said that the real miracle of Purim was that they all went to Ahashverosh’s seuda. They all used the same hechsher. There is also a joke about a big machmir who went to Gan Eden and was invited to a seuda. He asked who was the mashgiach. When told “the GRa” he declined. This went on and on. Finally he was invited to a seuda where Hashem was the mashgiach. He replied that he would have a glass of water.

    #1251977

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Avi K,

    Sometimes because of exigencies it is not possible to cater to everyone’s whims.

    Calling other people’s minhagim “whims”. Right out of the gate it’s clear that you’re not arguing from a place of mutual respect.

    Sometimes it is even necessary to rely on leniencies.

    How is forcing men to go to concerts “necessary” in the slightest? Or refusing to bring in mehadrin kosher food for soldiers who need it?

    If the IDF is serious about wanting chareidim to serve, then they have to demonstrate basic respect for chareidi beliefs. They have to decide whether the army is fundamentally a tool for assimilation, or a force representing all Israelis that protects the nation.

    #1252049

    mw13
    Participant

    Avi K:
    MW, it is not a chumra. It is a Torah obligation.

    Repeating a falsehood over and over does not miraculously make it become true. I will refer you yet again to the thread where we discussed this extensively, and came out that R’ Kook, R’ Tzvi Pesach Frank, the Chazon Ish, and R’ Moshe Feinstein, all psakened that yeshiva bochrim should not join the IDF.

    Your denial is simply staggering.

    #1252138

    Redleg
    Participant

    There is a kuntres by the Chofetz Chaim, ZTL, called, if I remember correctly, Machaneh Yrhudah which covers how one should conduct himself when drafted into the Army. He was referring to the Russian or German armies. I read it when I was drafted into the U.S. Army and found it very helpful as it did point out leniencies that one could use in such circumstances.

    #1252151

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Avi K. Please clarify your question. Is it the army at an institutional level meeting the needs of all soldiers or at the individual level. Your question, at least the way I read it, is it ok for one person to insist others follow his chumros. the way this thread has turned, you would have been better off asking, ust the army cater to the chumros of every enlisted member.

    Personally, I was involved in the kashrus of a hospital that had a kosher kitchen. the decision was made to adhere to a standard of “non gebrokhts”, certainly, there were those who wanted their knaidlach and other gebrokhts recipes, but, the decision was made to adhere to a standard that some didnt need. that was a decision made at the institutional level and it had zero to do with a galicianer imposing his minhag on a litvak.

    #1252249

    Redleg
    Participant

    “So apparently someone does not believe In hashgocha pratis…”

    Nisht, I never worried about a “bullet with my name on it”. It was the ones addressed to “Current Resident” that I worried about.

    #1252273

    Avi K
    Participant

    MW, Rav Tzvi Yehuda (Rav Kook was not alive when the state was established and what he wrote was in regard to the WW1 British army – at the time he was in London as he could not return to EY being that he was technically a citizen of Russia, which was at war with Turkey) only approved of the deferment if a guy was really learning and was not needed. For the rest of my reply see the “Protest” thread.

    Apushatayid, OK. I’ll accept your reformulation. Now you answer a follow-up question. What happens when chumrot conflict? For example, in your hospital case those who are makpid to eat gebruchts as per the Gra, who said that those who do not will ahve to give an account as to why they did not do the mitzva of simchat Yom Tov, lose out (BTW, someone I know said that he has a cousin in America who is such a big Mitnagged that he eats it every day EXCEPT the eighth). What about those members of the Eidot HaMizrach for who it is not Pesach if there is no rice?

    #1252315

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Avi K,

    What happens when chumrot conflict? For example, in your hospital case those who are makpid to eat gebruchts as per the Gra, who said that those who do not will ahve to give an account as to why they did not do the mitzva of simchat Yom Tov, lose out (BTW, someone I know said that he has a cousin in America who is such a big Mitnagged that he eats it every day EXCEPT the eighth).

    I don’t think that someone who is unable to eat gebrochts because s/he is in the hospital and the kosher kitchen there does not have them will have to give an account. Also, the hospital kitchen not having gebrochts does not stop the patient/guests from bringing their own to the hospital, if they are makpid to eat them.

    What about those members of the Eidot HaMizrach for who it is not Pesach if there is no rice?

    See above.

    If, G-d forbid, I were in the hospital over Pesach, I would be grateful if I had matza, marror, wine, and anything else kosher to eat, and the ability to eat it.

    #1252327

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Note also that the hospital situation is quite different than the IDF situation.

    #1252329

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    AviK, the point is to accommodate so everyone can eat. your examples are weak ones:
    If there is a patient who is machmir on eating gebrochts (?), he can take a paper cup, fill it with water and dip his matzo in it without compromising any other patient’s ability to eat.
    And sefardim might like to eat rice on pesach (not all sefardim by the way, and some who would don’t because they find it to burdensome to check it 7 (or is it 10) times) but they do not have a mitzva to eat it and get no aveira if they don’t.

    Would you have a problem with the army or hospital enforcing a nut-free menu because some are allergic? but what about those people who really enjoy their PB&J sandwich? Is it right to force someone’s food sensitivities on them?

    #1252350

    apushatayid
    Participant

    To AviK.

    Those who wished to eat gebrokhts or kitniyot had it brought in by their visitors. It is a hospital, not a hotel. I dodnt ask, but, I would like to think that someone chose this particular hospital for the medical care they would be getting and not the food they would be getting, but, I’ve been wrong before, and I will surely be again.

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