Forgetting your learning if you leave a Sefer open, unattended

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  • #1247885

    Joseph
    Participant

    What are the parameters of this rule?

    #1248205

    lesschumras
    Participant

    It only happens if it is Maseches Bubba Maaseh

    #1248374

    blubluh
    Participant

    I find it helpful to consider how forgetting one’s learning is midda-kenegged-midda for leaving an open sefer unattended.

    First, I think the term ‘sefer’ in this context originally referred to scrolls, though these days we apply it to books as well.

    Scrolls have a tendency to roll off a table, which would be a bizayon. Two main reasons one leaves a scroll in such a precarious position are either one is momentarily distracted by some other task and “forgets” about the sefer or that one is worried about “forgetting” one’s place.

    Both reasons show a weakness in one’s appreciation of the kedusha and value of the sefer and it’s contents. A more dedicated attitude towards the materials one studies from also influences the person to retain that learning.

    #1248380

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    What’s the source of this rule?

    #1248417

    Chortkov
    Participant

    The Halacha is brought in שו”ע יו”ד סי’ רע”ז by the ש”ך, who brings the source from either a Yerushalmi Megilla or the Gemara Eiruvin 98a.

    The source that contravening this Halacha causes forgetfulness in learning is from “חכמי האמת”, that a Malach called שומר דפין is appointed to cause those who leave a sefer open to forget their learning.

    This is the לשון of the ש”ך:

    כתב הב״ח דמירושלמי דמגילה יש ללמוד שלא ילך אדס לחוץ ויניח הספר פתוח אס אין עליו מפה דלאו דוקא ס״ת דה״ה שאר ספריס עכ״ל ולא היה צריך ללמוד כן מהירושלמי דהכי מוכח נמי מש״ס דילן בעירובין במשנה וש״ס שס )דף צ״ח ע״א( ע״ש וידוע לחכמי האמת שיש מלאך א׳ נקרא ש״ד והוא ״שומר דפין״ על מי שמניח ספר פתוח ויוצא שמשכח תלמודו:

    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=yd_x6790

    #1248422

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Lilmod Ulelamed: R’ Chaim Kanievsky writes in Sefer Zikaron:ונראה פשוט בנשים א״צ ליזהר בכל אלו

    #1249420

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Yekke2 – thank you for bringing the sources. I had never heard of this before, so it’s good to know.

    Even though R’ Chaim shlita says that women don’t have to be careful about things that cause forgetfulness, I wonder if this is different since the reason it’s a problem might be because it’s disrespectful to the Sefer (and not just because it causes forgetfulness). If that’s the case, presumably, it would be a problem for women as well.

    I also wonder if the fact that women don’t HAVE to be careful about these things because they don’t have a chiyuv of Talmud Torah means that they don’t forget their learning if they do these things or do they still forget their learning but it’s not assur for them to do so?

    If it’s the latter, then it would still be kidai to be cautious even if it’s not a chiyuv.

    On the other hand, I would think that if it does cause them to forget their learning, it would also be assur since they have a chiyuv to try to remember the halachos they have learned so maybe it is in fact the former.

    #1249483

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Does anyone have any established, proven instances where someone left an open sefer and forgot their learning? How long does it take to lose it? Is it instantaneous?

    #1249487

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Yekke2,

    Thank you for defining what lesschumras calls “Bubba Maaseh”.

    #1249502

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Even though R’ Chaim shlita says that women don’t have to be careful about things that cause forgetfulness, I wonder if this is different since the reason it’s a problem might be because it’s disrespectful to the Sefer (and not just because it causes forgetfulness). If that’s the case, presumably, it would be a problem for women as well.

    One hundred percent. I never meant to say that women shouldn’t be careful; this is a halachah besides for the issue that it causes forgetfulness. I prefaced by bringing the Halachah from the Gemara/Yerushalmi; the source that it causes forgetfulness is a separate thing entirely. R’ Chaim was talking about things which are halachicaly permitted.

    I also wonder if the fact that women don’t HAVE to be careful about these things because they don’t have a chiyuv of Talmud Torah means that they don’t forget their learning if they do these things or do they still forget their learning but it’s not assur for them to do so?

    I had the same safek as you, and I came out with the same maskanah. If it would cause forgetfulness, I find it very strange that R’ Chaim would say “פשוט שאין צריך ליזהר”; it is certainly עצה טובה not to do it. I imagine that it doesn’t cause forgetfulness at all.

    It is interesting, though – why should the fact that they are not mechuyav in Limud Toirah be a cause you shouldn’t forget? I don’t really see the svarah…

    #1249521

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Lesschumras, let me get this straight – the Shach is not proof enough for you??

    #1249537

    lesschumras
    Participant

    DY, with all due respect to Rav Shach, this sounds like stunting a babies growth by stepping over it. All I’m asking is are there documented cases. Not leaving a sefer open is Halacha;forgetting all your learning I find to be apocryphal and hard to believe it ever happened

    #1249552

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Less

    Whether you really have respect for R Shach has yet to be demonstrated. However, it seems you must have left a Sefer or two open at some point if you doesn’t know who the ש״ך is. The שפתי כהן is one of the classic נושא כלים that we pasken from.

    And no one said forget “all” ones learning, rather it causes one to forget his learning. Any amount of it. Which it is אסור to do intentionally and the psak is that you cannot do action which can cause it.

    #1249566

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Lesschumras, what does this have to do with stepping over a baby? Are all inyanim Al pi Kabbalah dismissed because there are some wrong superstitions?

    What yekke2 gave you was an impeccable source (not Rav Schach, THE Schach) quoting earlier sources. Challenging a Shach because you don’t understand supernatural cause and effect is not a good thing to be doing.

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