November 15, 2012 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #605977Herr HimmelMember
Litoeles H’rabim, please share any information known regarding available free government programs, grants and benefits so we can all participate.
Yasher KoachNovember 16, 2012 12:39 am at 12:39 am #910192squeakParticipant
The first one you should know about is the best and most important one. It’s called the freedom to live off the product of your own work. This significant freedom is offered as a free program by our government, and is wildly better than what the governments of the shtetls offered.November 16, 2012 1:24 am at 1:24 am #910193ZeesKiteParticipant
Lots of free programs. Look up “Freeware”November 16, 2012 2:10 am at 2:10 am #910194HaLeiViParticipant
There was no communism in the Shtetl, so in that regard we are the same.November 16, 2012 2:17 am at 2:17 am #910195
lolNovember 16, 2012 3:09 am at 3:09 am #910196babygooseParticipant
Thanks Squeak. gov. programs are here to help those who seriously need it. funny that some zip codes in neighborhoods we know have the most banks, the biggest money rollover and the highest foodstamp and programs rate….
use the programs if you NEED them, but not out of “it’s free so take it” attitude which leads you to a train wreck in the end of the dayNovember 16, 2012 4:04 am at 4:04 am #910197squeakParticipant
No, it is in regard to ignorance that we are still the same. Yours is showing. Communism? How about not being allowed to own lands, or to work in certain industry, or to even enter certain parts of the city? If its all the same to you, I prefer to be grateful for these rights.November 16, 2012 9:20 am at 9:20 am #910198HaLeiViParticipant
“[T]he freedom to live off the product of your own work” is the same. But I guess the manners are the same.November 16, 2012 11:48 am at 11:48 am #910199
Every Jew who is eligible for government money or free or reduced-cost programs should take full advantage of it and apply and recive every penny eligible.
Jews pay more taxes per capita than the rest of society, on average, and we should not be shy about accepting money and benefits that Jewish taxes are paying for.November 16, 2012 12:14 pm at 12:14 pm #910200
Nothing is free. It’s paid for from taxes.
I assume you are talking about programs such as welfare, food stamps, WIC, SCHIPS, etc. These are very popular even though one could argue they are accepting charity from the non-Jews.
One program that costs nothing to participate it is called JOBS. The government is a leading employer. Generally particpants in this program do quite well.November 16, 2012 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #910201dolphinaMember
The objective of any of these government programs is not to subsidize lives of people who refuse to work, or worse, manipulate their financial reporting so as to appear to qualify for said programs.
Every time someone takes from such a program they are causing MY taxes to go up.
Iced – you stated in another post:
‘Clearly, when the term “OTD” is used, it is referring to leaving the derech of Hashem and his Torah. Not merely or necessarily the derech of ones parents. That being said, it certainly can be said that someone who was frum and knows of the Torah will pay a very heavy price for leaving the derech of the Torah and becoming a Mechallel Shabbos and treif-eater. ‘
There are more than 2 sins in the Torah. What kind of price does one pay for gezel? And how about systematic and repeated gezel? Since my taxes fund all of these programs, anyone who takes from these programs using your reasoning is stealing from me.
I am not mochel. Not even a little.November 16, 2012 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #910203
dolphina: Are you blind? I specifically wrote that any Jew who is QUALIFIED for any government program should take full advantage and apply for every penny he is QUALIFIED for. That not only is not gezel but it is a Mitzvah Rabba to take every penny into Jewish hands from the goyishe ganovim in the government.
And I hope you don’t like that. If your taxes go up, that’s between you and the IRS. I am going now to look for some more government programs I can apply for and qualify from taxpayers. And please never be moichel since I neither need nor wish for your forgiveness. If you have a problem with that, go speak to your local Congressman.November 16, 2012 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #910204
dolphina – you are correct. Not sure why you assume the worst right away though. His words were:
Every Jew who is eligible
that would rule out those who aren’t. Even if they fix their books to make it look like they are.November 16, 2012 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #910206yitzchokmParticipant
iced did say “eligible”. if your “eligible” whats your problem?November 16, 2012 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #910207BobchkaParticipant
The objective of any of these government programs is not to subsidize lives of people who refuse to work”
So why does all of these programs penalize any one who tries to get off the dole by reducing the benifits dollar for dollar and therby making it not worth the time and effort to work?November 16, 2012 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #910208flyerParticipant
come on – yes your taxes fund programs. would you rather it fund some black’s programs – who get a lot more programs than any person in BP or Lakewood. At least be happy that your “siblings” can also benefit. And I don’t/never did receive any benefits – I am a real middle class family – I can’t afford many foods or other items that people on food stamps/state insurance/…. can but I am still happy that they have what to live on. As long as it is done honestly – there is nothing wrong with it. Especially today when it is impossible to find jobs and when you do find a job – you can’t live off it anyway.November 16, 2012 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #910209yaakov doeParticipant
The programs are meant for those who actually meet the income eligibility requirements when the total household income is counted. Any attempt to receive benefits through concealment involves halachic propblems. Ask sny recognized posek.November 16, 2012 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #910210crisisoftheweekMember
Iced said “That not only is not gezel but it is a Mitzvah Rabba to take every penny into Jewish hands from the goyishe ganovim in the government.”
I’m saying this with a full heart and conviction.
When those “ganovim” come to pogrom us out of the country..I hope they come for you first.
Mitzvah Rabbah to take every penny? The Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion really are true!November 16, 2012 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #910212
crisis: You will be the first they take.
As the Germans — home of the Reform assimilaters who did everything imaginable to not only do no different than the goyim, but to do everything the goyim believed correct — is where the holocaust began.
When you become like them they hate you more than when you make sure and obvious that you are different than them.November 16, 2012 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #910213
crisis: I also find it tellingly ironic that you found fault with calling ganovim a government which taxes people to death — especially Jews who on average have more income AND who pay through their bloody noses for a public education they don’t utilize while they are denied funding for their private education even though they are taxed for education — while at the same time you saw no need to find fault or voice any protest against “dolphina” above calling Jews gazlonim who QUALIFY for programs and using them. (Since he says it raises his taxes — which is at best a nebulous claim, as the Federal government hasn’t raised taxes since 1998 despite entitlement programs costs having gone through the roof since that time — and taxes are not raised when another person joins a program.)
Calling a Jew a ganov because he receives assistance he is fully and legally 100% truthfully eligible for is okay with you but calling a government who redistributes wealth a ganov is not okay? Especially considering the government is taking a lot more taxes from Jews than it is benefiting them in entitlement program distribution?
Why would you rather the government fund minorities — who are on these programs on a much much much higher rate than Jews — but deny the same benefits to Jews?November 17, 2012 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #910215PosterMember
I understood that one can only qualify for govt programs if you provide a payment stub. Meaning both parents must be working, but not earning enough, to qualify for programs. Is this not correct?November 17, 2012 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #910216zahavasdadParticipant
Please share what Gadol says its OK to take government money in the US (As opposed to other countries where the law is differnt) instead of workingNovember 18, 2012 12:36 am at 12:36 am #910217
Free government program used by many frum Yidden with good results, no shailoh of taking tasadakah from the goyim:November 18, 2012 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #910218
Iced, your argument is somewhat valid only if the U.S. imposes a dhimmi-like “Jew tax” or a Czarist-like collective tax. Do you really believe this? Got any evidence for it?November 18, 2012 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #910219
Which argument are you speaking of?November 18, 2012 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #910220
Iced, this argument: “Jews pay more taxes per capita than the rest of society, on average, and we should not be shy about accepting money and benefits that Jewish taxes are paying for.”
I fully accept that a taxpayer who meets h/her obligations under law is entitled to benefits under law, but not that “we” (Jews) have a collective entitlement because of the extra-high “Jewish taxes” that we pay.November 18, 2012 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #910221
Natfush: That point I made, was that I rejected any arguments that Jews should refrain from accepting government benefits they are legally and fully entitled to receive under the law.
I make no claim that Jews should receive additional benefits unavailable to others.November 18, 2012 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #910222dolphinaMember
There is a distinction between legally entitled to and morally entitled to.
You can choose not to work and be legally eligible.
To anyone to whom the distinction is unclear, there is nothing more to say. One word of advice – those who do not see the distinction perhaps re-think their attitudes towards those who they perceive to be ‘less’ observant than they are, as their perception of their own observance might be a tad bit skewed.November 18, 2012 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #910223
Morals are solely defined by the Torah. Non-Jewish “morals” have no role to play in a Jews life.
And if a legal monetary benefit assists in Limud HaTorah, there can be nothing more moral than engaging in that.November 18, 2012 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #910224
dolphina (and zdad) – Once again I agree with you that many posters have given good support to your distate for them and their way of life. It just hurts me that you aren’t able to see how similar your attitude is to theirs. When someone posts that there are government programs, the first response from those who are anti-chareidi (or whatever) is the assumption that they are loafing, fixing books and dishonest. I am not trying to argue with you, there are so many idiots out there doing just what you discribe but why is your assumption about them any more “halachically appropriate” then their assumptions.
Please don’t lower yourself to that and please don’t be so accusing and hurtful to those of us who have chosen to live a chareidi-ish life but are NOT doing any of the things you speak of.
Some of us are working very hard and raising our kids with the minimum and have accepted government hep during those years that we couldn’t manage on our own. Getting a $1000 raise meant losing $10,000 in benefits and now not making ends meet at all. Do I fix the books to continue getting the benefits? No. Do I chose to take lower pay so I can party on all those extras the governemnt gives me? No. I turned down a better (much better) paying job because I didn’t want my kids waking themselves up in the morning and putting them selves on a bus. I took a lower paying job so I can be home with them in the summer since we can’t afford to send them to camp and I don’t want them home alone. I took a lower paying job so that I could pick them up after school instead of sending them on a bus to an empty house. Do I owe you any explanations? No, but you have embarrassed me even more than the government applications do and I needed to defend myself to get a shred of my dignity back.
You think that everyone in a black hat acts like that? Maybe it’s time to realize that there are other communities and cities out there (WOW – really?) where those types of behaviors aren’t rampant, or aren’t even the norm.
I am not denying the validity of your claims against SOME people who should know better, but PLEASE don’t stoop to their level by assuming everyone in THEIR mode of dress is doing the same garbage either.
(thanks for listening)November 18, 2012 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #910225
“Jews pay more taxes…”
Frum Jews certainly don’t. We have large numbers of children (few of whom have trust funds are anything else to pay taxes), a large number of people with low incomes (kollels and yeshivos pay lousy salaries), we have many people who give up much income in order to have jobs that won’t cause hassles with religious observances, we have many women who choose to be unemployed or underemployed in order to take care of children. Any Jews who tries to maximize parnassah quickly learns that most paths to maximize parnassah create a conflict with being frum.
Frei Jews are probably among the richest group in America, and they don’t seem to mind paying high taxes (note that they overwhelmingly vote for the party of “tax and spend”). Frum Jews are more likely to be in the 47%, than the 1%.November 18, 2012 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #910226HealthParticipant
iced -“Morals are solely defined by the Torah. Non-Jewish “morals” have no role to play in a Jews life.
And if a legal monetary benefit assists in Limud HaTorah, there can be nothing more moral than engaging in that.”
You’re wrong. Many Gedolim disagree with the Lakewood way of life. I’m not saying the Lakewood way of life is wrong, but it’s not the only Shitta.November 19, 2012 12:58 am at 12:58 am #910227BrooklinebornParticipant
What i think Iced is saying is that Jews are wealthy and therefore those who pay more taxes, like Streisand and Spielberg or Eisner or subsidize those who are more religious and use the social service system to subsidize their family while they learn, even though those rich assimilated jews may not be recognized as jews because they are not frum or keep shabbos or identify as reform. they are not good enough to be jews but their money is good enough to subsidize them through taxesNovember 19, 2012 1:26 am at 1:26 am #910228ready nowParticipant
Iced- I posted this 5 months ago:
That is what YWN reported about askanim saying on their visit to the White House about 2 days ago.
And I went on to say how we also cannot ask for money from the government to be given to the schools of other religions.
This is prompted by your last comment.November 19, 2012 3:26 am at 3:26 am #910229farrocksMember
Frum Jews are more likely to be in the 47%, than the 1%.
That’s a mathematical fact that is true regarding any random American. The 47% is 47 times larger than the 1%. (Duh.)
That being said, we should consider Jews as a whole for the purpose of this issue, rather than breaking them down in frum vs. frei.November 19, 2012 9:05 am at 9:05 am #910231
Farrocks and Iced, both of you make it sound as though there’s collective “Jewish taxation” in America for which collective “Jewish benefits” should be extracted. Is this so, or is it a question of lifestyle choices?November 19, 2012 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #910232
Natfush: It’s neither. The point simply being Jews that pay significantly above average in taxes and collect significantly below average in entitlement benefits. And that Jews who do legally qualify for such benefits, should not hesitate in collecting them.November 19, 2012 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #910234
Both my husband and i work full time, fall in the middle class, cant afford many things, but making enough so that we can continue paying our bills. We arent eligible for any programs (b”h), we pay the high taxes, and everything is on the books.
Being that we are honest people and we report and pay all our taxes, it hurts when many friends and aquaintances “brag” about all the programs they are receiving while they receive money from their jobs under the table.
Of course i’d prefer that my tax money go to my brothers/sisters who really need it, but if you were to go through the books (and under the table books) you would see that unfortunately there are many, many, many people who hide their income and just take cuz it’s “free”.November 19, 2012 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #910235
miritchka : +1 And I’m sorry you have to listen to that, B”H where I live most of those getting assistance hate and and wouldn’t discuss it with anyone. Your honesty is a blessing.November 19, 2012 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #910236farrocksMember
There is nothing wrong with discussing benefits with others. And nothing wrong with helping others obtain benefits.
Furthermore, I find it deeply troubling that some people simply assume (falsely, in most cases) that others do not report all their income when applying for benefits. For one thing, families with income are entitled to government benefits. To assume and claim that someone failed to list their income when applying, is simply motzi shem ra.
And, finally, I do hope those who oppose these benefits are not hypocritical, and when filing their IRS and State income tax returns decline to claim the Earned Income Tax Credit or the Child Tax Credits and other tax credits offered by the government. Many of these tax credits people receive even if they don’t owe taxes or it exceeds the amount of taxes they pay (usually referred to as “refundable tax credits”.) They get a check from the government for it.
Well, who here forgoes claiming tax credits they are entitled to?
Anyone?November 26, 2012 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #910238
Syag Lchochma – thank you!
farrocks – as i mentioned earlier, i prefer that my tax money go to my brothers/sisters rather than others who just sit back on their lazy behinds. Am i wrong to assume that many hide their income to get benefits? very possibly, i wont deny that. Do i know actual cases of my brothers/sisters who do get benefits and are making nice money that is not reported? Yes, many.
There are some that are ashamed that they do it and dont mention it but the others who are proud of thier fraud and have told me that they and their siblings/friends/relatives/neighbors… do the same.November 26, 2012 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #910239gavra_at_workParticipant
farrocks – as i mentioned earlier, i prefer that my tax money go to my brothers/sisters rather than others who just sit back on their lazy behinds.
An assumption that the two are not one and the same will probably turn out false.November 27, 2012 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #910241
gavra_at_work: lol! I try not to think along those lines! However, if you were to drive through certain neighborhoods you would see that the majority of people living off of our taxes are perfectly able to work but dont, driving through a frummer neighborhood, you probably wont see mothers sitting outside just sitting and talking. There are bound to be a couple of babies and young children there too making it difficult to go out and work.November 27, 2012 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #910242shmoelMember
I hope as many less wealthy yidden as possible collect money from the government so that I get as many mitzvos of giving tzedaka as possible, via the taxes I pay going to these less fortunate families.December 3, 2012 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #910243
shmoel: hear, hear!
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