January 20, 2019 11:21 am at 11:21 am #1664713
The The Freezer opens tonight & 100’s of boys will begin searching for their zivvug. The majority got very little prep about what’s important & what’s trivial for their situation. The rush is on to be the first to announce your a chosson with a knock shidduch.
The results are telling. Lakewood has now become the main frum marriage counselor destination. Dr. Wikler, Dr. Yaakov Salamon, & others have relocated their offices to Lakewood to deal with the increasing marital strife going on. Broken shidduchim & divorces are on the rise.
Our boys sat in a 3 month freezer amassing lists of potential girls to marry with no information about what they need for marriage.
Please take a look at the shiur given by R’ Akiva Tatz about this subject titled ” choosing a marriage partner ” available on hidabroot.January 20, 2019 11:42 am at 11:42 am #1664762
Preparing for marriage takes a lot longer than 3 months.
If someone has bad midos, immaturity, or messed up priorities, a few classes on marriage isn’t going to do much.
I’m not saying they wouldn’t be useful, but the problem isn’t the freezer, or Lakewood, or not hearing R’ Tatz’ shiur, which I’m sure is wonderful.
It runs much deeper.
BTW, the population is moving to Lakewood, The fact that these therapists moved there isn’t a raya that sholom bayis issues (per capita) are worse there than Brooklyn.January 20, 2019 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #1664801
Additionally it’s not totally the Guy’s fault
Beis Yaakov girls are taught “marry a learning boy” but that’s it, if the women can support him when they’re married, good. But not everyone that goes through Lakewood can adapt outside of LakewoodJanuary 20, 2019 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #1664799
Too trueJanuary 20, 2019 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #1664797
The idea that either boys or girls are more unprepared for marriage than the opposite gender is, simply put, a bubbe maaisa.January 20, 2019 12:10 pm at 12:10 pm #1664827
it wasn’t that long ago that Yaakov Salomon wrote in the FJJ Jthat he was moving to Lakewood so as to be closer to his children and grandchildren.January 20, 2019 12:21 pm at 12:21 pm #1664832
30 years ago Dr. Wikler wrote a book Bayis Neeman Byisroel where he already discussed part of this issue, as he said (paraphrase). for eightenn I was taught not to speak to boys and now I have to go out on dates and try to converse with a boy whn I have until now been taught it was wrong.January 20, 2019 12:21 pm at 12:21 pm #1664834
I imagine he’s quite busy, though.January 20, 2019 12:21 pm at 12:21 pm #1664839
“not everyone that goes through Lakewood can adapt outside of Lakewood”
CA: What does that mean?January 20, 2019 12:43 pm at 12:43 pm #1664858
Most children are unprepared for adult life. In pre-modern times, children generally worked with adults doing adult things (housework, caring for children, working in the father’s business, etc.) and learning how to be adults. In the 21st century most children go to school, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but that leaves them unprepared for the adult role of being heads of their own families. It isn’t a problem limited to Jews. In fact, in most industrialized countries, one sees a rapidly falling birth rate which is probably the best indicator that the children are unable to successfully transition to adult roles, which is already having a devastating effect on some countries (e.g. labor shortages, inability to fund social security systems, etc.).January 20, 2019 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #1664878
The problem is these guys think that marriage is the final product.January 20, 2019 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #1664906
What is a “knock shidduch?”
The WolfJanuary 20, 2019 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #1664914
Wolf don’t get too excited.January 20, 2019 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #1665050
When I was a Bachur in Lakewood 20 years ago, I heard a marriage Vaad from R’ Mattisyahu Solomon Shlita. He said, paraphrased, “Every Chosson wants to know, ‘How can I be the best husband? How can I do marriage right?’ The truth is that it is simple. A Bachur who did Bachurhood correctly – he did what he was supposed to do when he was supposed to do it in the way in which it was supposed to be done – will be an excellent husband and father. The same skills that allowed him to succeed before marriage, such as putting responsibility over his own wants and desires, and accepting Hadrachah , will stand him in good stead during his marriage as well. There are no quick fixes.” It is not likely that much has changed
What is likely that the prevailing social winds that lead to greater divorce rates in the world at large have filtered through to our Yeshivish society as well.
And who says that the percentages have gone up anyway? As the population grows, the raw numbers will rise even in the rates do not.January 20, 2019 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #1665055
Ack! My hair’s not done yet!January 20, 2019 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #1665069
The Chareidi world has one of the smallest divorce rates of any society.January 20, 2019 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #1665076
Have fun waiting an extra month this year on a leap year until the freezer opens up on 15 Adar 1 instead of 15 shevatJanuary 20, 2019 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #1665086
I dont get it. Who prepared us, or our parents for marriage? Isnt it someyting that everyone needs to work on and master?
1: what is the final product?January 20, 2019 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #1665098
I don’t comment anymore but couldn’t help myself.
Just want to clarify this for y’all. Marriage is not the final product, the cookies are.January 20, 2019 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #1665106
I’m sure for the parents of an unmarried boy or girl in a small shtetl in the Alte Heim, there was some degree of anxiety but likely not the “crisis” mentality we are dealing with today. Daily life was a much greater challenge and I suspect the ability to establish your own home and living arrangements with your beschert was not the simple task of going to one of the “one stop” wedding stores to purchase all your dishes, furnishings etc. As far as where did our parents and grandparents “learn” to be husban/wife, probably w/o the benefit of online videos, kallah classes etc.January 20, 2019 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #1665056
The bigger question raised by this thread should be that BOTH the boys and girls are frequently unready for marriage when the pressure is imposed to do so in their late teens/early 20s. Don’t just assume its the boys’ problem. As one of our heilege CR posters frequently reminds us, it “Takes2 ToTango”.January 21, 2019 10:12 am at 10:12 am #1665360
I am far from the milieu described above, but not so far to notice something weird: A community that professes absolute faith in G-d’s management of the world is committing itself to rising levels of human engineering (e.g., the “freezer”) to introduce “boys” and “girls” (elsewhere known as young adults) to each other. I get the feeling that as the population becomes larger and larger, the individual’s options are getting narrower and narrower. Some of this is also happening in my Israeli national-religious environment, and thirty-six years into my successful marriage I wonder if I’d be matched with anyone today.January 21, 2019 10:24 am at 10:24 am #1665369
The freezer doesn’t introduce young adults to each other.
“The freezer” as it’s called, is a rule with BMG has that a bochur first joining the yeshiva signs a paper that he will not meet with a prospective shidduch (in other words, date) for a few months. The reason this was instituted was not to change anything about shidduchim, it was so that bochurim will be settled into yeshiva when they start shidduchim, which helps them keep shidduchim from being a bigger distraction from learning than it would be if they started immediately.January 21, 2019 10:44 am at 10:44 am #1665388
Naftush II: The only thing the freezer is designed and aimed for is to keep young gentlemen focused on their Limud Torah rather than taking away from that endeavor by their engaging in shidduch involvement. There’s no other “human engineering” intended regarding introducing guys and gals to each other, that you seem to be referring to.January 21, 2019 11:13 am at 11:13 am #1665413
Daas Yochid and Joseph, the opening of the freezer and the discharging of “100’s of boys [to] begin searching for their zivvug” (Haimy, above) is emphatically a human-engineered phenomenon. It’s followed by the human engineering of mediators (shadchanim, parents) by whose exclusive offices “boys” and “girls” can search for their zivvug. I get the impression that the mediation has been more and more exacting as the years pass, as evidenced in the invention of the “shidduch resume” and so on — even as (or maybe because) the eligible population is growing. And again: I do not mean by all this to “attack” the Chareidim, since it’s all evident (at least partly) in my society too.January 21, 2019 11:18 am at 11:18 am #1665415
Nu, any Mazel tovs yet?January 21, 2019 11:20 am at 11:20 am #1665417
Naftush, the side effect of the freezer is that hundreds of boys start shidduchim at the same time, but it’s certainly not the intention, and I don’t know that it has any effect on the overall picture.
Yes, the OP picked Tu B’shvat, when these boys start dating, to discuss whether they are properly prepared, but there’s no real connection.
Maybe there are ways in which the shidduch process is “engineered” that we can discuss, but the freezer isn’t a great example.January 21, 2019 11:44 am at 11:44 am #1665420
Naftsuh, the freezer only delays the “discharging of 100’s of boys…”, without the freezer there would be a deluge of new dating boys with the end of each z’man, as the boys return from their yeshivos in E”Y. It’s no more engineered than say, the girls starting when they return from seminary in June. And a boy does not have to go to Lakewood, you know. And if he does, no one is forcing him to start dating when the freezer opens.January 21, 2019 11:44 am at 11:44 am #1665423
January 20, 2019 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm
The idea that either boys or girls are more unprepared for marriage than the opposite gender is, simply put, a bubbe maaisa
If bubba maaises are so not true then why do u always preach about emulating our grandparentsJanuary 21, 2019 12:20 pm at 12:20 pm #1665430
You’re talking about 2 different things. Saying that shadchanim are practicing human engineering is one thing, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the so-called “freezer.” Everything you’re describing would just happen a few months earlier otherwise.
Gadol: “As far as where did our parents and grandparents “learn” to be husban/wife, probably w/o the benefit of online videos, kallah classes etc.”
Are you suggesting they didn’t have Choson/Kallah classes back then? Do you think in the alte heim that people were just born with a perfect working knowledge of hilchos niddah?January 21, 2019 12:21 pm at 12:21 pm #1665433
Girls are just as unprepared. In an age where many girls have a privileged upbringing, they don’t have to cook, clean, or worry about even making a car payment. They buy this idea of marry a learning guy, support him, and maybe he’ll come up with a plan, to return the favor. It works if it materializes. Guys burn out from yeshiva, quickly.January 21, 2019 12:21 pm at 12:21 pm #1665435
Funnybone, where you are holding, at your last minutes. There are a lot of fakers waiting to change their lifestyle once they get married. Once they get married, they’ll start playing English music again, watching movies, and other frivolous activities which they wouldn’t do when they were in yeshiva.January 21, 2019 12:31 pm at 12:31 pm #1665434
Here is a partial list of questions which come along with ” thawed out freezer syndrome”
How do people perceive him/her?
What does s/he do in spare time (for boys in learning: bein hazmanin, bein hasedarim)?
What are his/her real values? Give examples.
What is his/her biggest mailah (strongest point)? Best middos?
Is s/he the type of boy(girl) that will do anything for a friend? Ask for examples
Scale of 1-10 is s/he warm/giving?
Scale of 1-10, reserved or outgoing? Serious or funny?
What type of friends does s/he have? Are they into fashion? Sophisticated? Is s/he also like that?
Attitude towards money?
What are his/her practices about: watching movies? Videos? Using the internet? Smart phone? Video games?
Does he/she care how he/she keeps his/her room? Messy or neat?
Does s/he clean up after him/herself? Does s/he help at home?
How does s/he interact with parents? Are they respectful or adversarial?
What does he do in his spare time?
Does he play chess or or gamble on nittel nacht?
Does he Drive aggressively?
How does he deal with frustration?
Does he lose his temper?
Is he cynical?
Baal middos? Mensch? Kind, Helpful? Considerate of others? What makes you say that?
Is he honest? Have you ever heard him/her say something not true?
Is he responsible?
How does he socially and emotionally interact with friends & rebbeim?
Sociable/ gregarious or constantly immersed in his seforim?
In regard to roommates: is he considerate, quiet, personal hygiene?
Is he a doer? Is he always busy taking care of things? Or does he focus more on his own learning?
Does he have a Rav/Rebbe whom he respects? To whom he asks his questions?
Is he on time to davening most of the time?
How long is he planning to learn?
How seriously does he take his learning?
Is he in the beis medrash on time? Or more relaxed about attendance?
Is he is employed? Studying for a degree? Where? What are his career plans?
If he is not in Bais Medrash fulltime, does he have a learning schedule?
Questions Regarding Girls
“How does she dress?” “Describe what she wears?” rather than “Does she dress with tzniyus?”
Is she flexible/go with the flow?
How much time does she spend with makeup/clothes, etc?
Is she punctual?
Describe relationships with family members
Is she helpful in the kitchen, around the house?
What does she do with her spare time?
How old was he/she when they got thier drivers permit?
Does everyone in the family daven one nusach ie: sefard, ashkenaz,aram soba etc?
What could you tell me about her davening?
Why type of chessed is she involved in?
Is she looking for a short or long term learner? A guy with a plan? Or, someone currently employed?
What are her plans regarding working?
Are the siblings in the family spaced more then 2 years apart.
Is the girl into shoes?
Would she give her family priority over her career?
If the girl is known as a successful Morah, this is already a significant character endorsement, since the students reject teachers who have major faults.
Asking for clothing size gives a message about the priorities of the boy, perhaps better avoided.
About the Parents/Home
Ask shul members or neighbors how they perceive the parents: easy going or difficult? controlling? happy?
Do they seem to get along well with people?
Is there shalom bayis?
How is the household run, is it hefker or are parents involved in children’s lives?
Are they generous? With their time for children and giving what their children need, or are they too generous, giving more than they need?
Are parents overly involved their adult childrens’ lives? What makes you say that?
Are the living standards very high or low? Ask for concrete examples, since this area is very subjective. Parents need to consider if their child would be able to handle this kind of living standard.
Is the father machshiv Torah?
How does the mother dress?
Which seminary did the grandmother attend?
Are there genetic health issues?January 21, 2019 12:39 pm at 12:39 pm #1665467
Here is a partial list of questions which come along with ” thawed out freezer syndrome”
That’s excellent. Can we please see the rest?
Which seminary did the grandmother attend?
HahaJanuary 21, 2019 1:19 pm at 1:19 pm #1665483
if any granddaughter of mine went out with a recently released freezer inmate, i would amend my will.January 21, 2019 1:24 pm at 1:24 pm #1665491
I don’t know where this “statistic” came from that “most” boys who come out of the freezer are not ready to date or marry. Any boy or girl who has been raised in an emotionally healthy home and has observed their parents conduct themselves as spouses and parents and has had normal interactions with their siblings of both genders while growing up are usually pretty well prepared for the give and take of family life. They have been practicing the acquired skills necessary for creating a positive relationship with a prospective spouse.
Before looking for a partner, the most important thing to have is a clear honest understanding of yourself both emotionally, and intellectually, and then you will know what you need in a partner.January 21, 2019 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #1665679
To 1: Very comprehensive list of interrogatories for due diligence of a prospective choson/kalah but for a single question. Is there any chemistry between them?? I know for some that will be an irrelevant metric but for most of the world, its actually a primary factor.January 21, 2019 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #1665760
Gadolhadorah – to test for chemistry is THE reason why young Yeshivish adults go out on dates in nearly all circles, and do not simply marry on arranged paper. You hit the nail between the eyes.January 21, 2019 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #1665777
The little I knowParticipant
It is no longer revolutionary to make the observation that today’s marriages face greater challenges and risk. It is also no chiddush that preparation for marriage is a factor in this. Reflecting back on the past few decades, I can notice distinct efforts to make things better. Yet, that improvement might not be keeping pace with the population growth together with cultural factors that impinge on the life of a young couple.
Many homes today lack the parental role models for marriage. This includes shalom bayis issues, single parents, problems involving extended families, having siblings with health conditions that drain parents’ time and energy, or even parents whose time and energies are swallowed by work (and klal work is included).
Behaviors common to yeshiva environments and girls schools/seminaries are, in many cases, not adaptable to marriage. Even the chinuch and guidance offered with regards to interpersonal midos is often incompatible with what is needed for a marital relationship. It is easy to understand why some material is not appropriate fr the academic settings. As the Steipler Gaon ZT”L once noted, it is a huge change for a yungerman to relate appropriately to a wife after spending many years relating to a shtender.
The actual phase of chosson and kallah instructions and guidance is frought with handicap. To date, there is no credential that indicates that one is qualified to serve as a chosson or kallah teacher. The position in a yeshiva or shul is not a relevant qualification. Many of these teachers are great, others teach only halachos, and others fare even more poorly. Learning the nuances of how to count vestos is a critical aspect that needs to be taught. How to communicate, respect, earn respect, and value the marriage are equally critical. Omitting these is a gigantic risk. Some of these were taught by society, and the community was on a greater spiritual level. we lack the safety of the shtetl.
There are other forms of progress (or regression) with the influences of technology, other worldly values, etc. that make our lives different. And we need other measures to protect ourselves from becoming victims of these developments. There are “norms” and “standards” that one can see all around us that are the products of our times. Of course, we can label these and ban them. But that seems to be relatively ineffective.
We also should seriously question the myth of the “learning boy” and the girls that look for them. The placing of Torah as the priority element of a lifestyle does not require kollel, and does not contradict earning an honest living. Pushing that agenda in our yeshivos and seminaries is misguided and unhealthy for marriages.
I am not addressing the Freezer, nor Lakewood. I am addressing the many couples that emerge from their Sheva Brachos with shell shock, and no one to approach to seek help. Sometimes a Rosh Kollel is useful for this, but often not. Seldom is a chosson or kallah teacher the right person for the already married couple. And family is almost always a horrible choice for this.January 21, 2019 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #1665797
Do you have any evidence that anyone, anywhere, any time was “ready to get married”?January 21, 2019 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #1665831
TLIK: Perhaps I overlooked your suggestion, but what, in detail, solution do you propose for the problem you describe?January 21, 2019 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #1665871
The little i know says:
am not addressing the Freezer, nor Lakewood. I am addressing the many couples that emerge from their Sheva Brachos with shell shock, and no one to approach to seek help. Sometimes a Rosh Kollel is useful for this, but often not. Seldom is a chosson or kallah teacher the right person for the already married couple. And family is almost always a horrible choice for this.
Excellent point there!
You made my day. Thank you
Finally, a sensible comment here.January 22, 2019 9:15 am at 9:15 am #1665946
The little I knowParticipant
To respond to your comment “Perhaps I overlooked your suggestion, but what, in detail, solution do you propose for the problem you describe?”
There are 3 obvious changes we need to have, and some are actually feasible, not fantasy.
1) We must be conscious of our responsibilities to children, to provide them with a home environment that extols the virtues we wish they absorb. That means our own shalom bayis, models for how we handle conflict, and availability to be an active part of our children’s lives. The participation in everyone else’s simchos, countless fundraisers, and massive amounts of volunteer activity, while virtuous, often replace what we should be giving to our children. If we give our parental responsibilities priority over the other things, whether work, Klal, or social, we will reap huge profits. Seems to be asking much, but really placing importance on what really matters.
2) Our chinuch in yeshivos, schools, and seminaries must include a hefty dose of guidance about proper midos. There is zero bitul Torah involved in teaching about problem solving, conflict resolution, communication skills, and a host of midos of bein odom lachaveiro. The Mussar Movement that was pushed by Reb Yisroel Salanter was not about academic mussar, but about the practical mussar. The mashgichim who followed his derech, mostly from that first generation of his talmidim, were focused on the dedication of their talmidim to menchlichkeit, not what color shirts they wore. Coming on time to tefilos was not a disciplinary issue, with negative consequences, but a matter of one’s connection to tefilah and avodas Hashem. If we revisit what is priority in chinuch, we will encounter much to change, again with huge profits.
3) I am not the one who seeks regulation (I guess that allies me with Republicans not Democrats). We must get a handle on the chosson and kallah teachers, and make that step of preparation for marriage into a useful process for much more than the basic halachos. This needs to compensate for whatever is missing from #1 and #2. Do these madrichim try to inform their chassanim or kallahs about the expected thinking differences between genders? How about expectations of relationships with in-laws? Should newlywed wives be mashgichim to insure their husbands wake u on time? Who guides them to avoid power struggles? The kollel couple has added measures of challenges. How do they cope with them? Is their dependency temporary, and how do they manage it? What about the possibilities of crisis? To whom do they turn? While some of these issues might be addressed in some form by #1 or #2, most are relevant almost completely to the marital context, and belong in the guidance prior to marriage.
There are growing trends for communities to begin filling in the serious gaps. While welcome and effective, we are observing a drop in the ocean, with so much more needed.
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