August 14, 2015 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #616215
Lakewood Yeshiva thinks its so important for a guys learning that they have a freezer. I think we should take a page out of their book and make a freezer for morahs! I can’t tell you how many people I’ve talked to who have had their kids switch morahs several times in the same year! How can these constant changes allow our kids to learn anything??! This is mad! We should have the following rules:
1. No kallahs may become morahs.
2. Once you become a morah, no dating until summer time (or if you must date, you cannot get married until the year is over).
I think our kids need this so they have some stability and actually learn something during the year!! Its only fair.August 14, 2015 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #1097191gavra_at_workParticipant
yeshivabochur123 – It is unfair to the girls, who have such a hard time as is, to disallow them from getting married. So I have a better suggestion:
No hiring unmarried girls as Morahs.August 14, 2015 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #1097192
y daughter lost years (yes, years!) of learning because of this. I once suggested this same thing to some people who were horrified!! It went something like this:
me: If they cannot commit to a year of teaching, they have no business teaching!
them: What!? Chas V Shalom! Are you saying a girl shouldn’t date? Are you saying a girl should have a 7 month engagement?
me: I said that if you are more worried about yourself than the class of girls you are teaching, don’t teach while you are dating! or don’t teach at all!
them:What?! Chas V Shalom! well then what else should they do? Should they just not work and have no money?
me: So you are trying to tell me that girls are teaching because they have nothing else to do with their time until they get married?
them: What?! Chas V Shalom! what a terrible thing to say! These girls are completely committed to these children!
me: Committed to the children? well then they shouldn’t start out the year unless they can commit to finishing it…
they never got it. it’s all about shidduchim. to heck with the kids, their stability, their sense of committment, their trust in their teachers committment to them…
go ahead, tell me I’m exaggerating, chas v shalomAugust 14, 2015 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #1097193
Married morahs are also a problem, they mess up the year by having babies. Don’t understand why they can’t just get the girls to commit to finishing the year. Whenever I hire someone in my business I operate under the assumption they are going to stay a while as the time it takes just to get trained and accustomed to the job is no less than four months. I don’t see why morahs should not have the same level of commitment.
It is true that many of these 18-23 year old girls are neither committed nor exceptionally qualified. in my opinion many are just glorified babysitters. Even if someone is qualified, coming in the middle of the year means you have to start from the top with only half the time left. The whole system is not conducive to learning anything!August 14, 2015 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #1097194👑RebYidd23Participant
The kids don’t actually mind. It’s you who feels this way.August 14, 2015 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #1097195
Syag – hilarious. I especially liked the bit about having no money. My grandson’s daughter just took one of them teaching posts and she is earning less than what I made as an apprentice during the Great Depression, no adjustment for inflation. Financially the difference for those girls between working and not working is roughly a cup of coffee. Which may have something to do with their lack of committment. But it is definitely why the school likes hiring them.August 14, 2015 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #1097196elbendiParticipant
What you are missing here is the pay issue. Morahs are paid poorly. If you want commitment, it comes at a cost. If you pay pennies, you can not expect a commitment from a young lady whose first responsibility is to get married. If you pay respectably, then you can make some demands.August 14, 2015 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #1097197
Fascinating topic, and an important issue. I haven’t yet decided whether to take a humorous, serious, or sarcastic approach.August 14, 2015 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #1097198JosephParticipant
The solution is to only hire men for the little yingerlach.August 14, 2015 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #1097199
okay bachur, you started off making a good point and now you are just being ridiculous. There is a world of difference between taking off for 4 weeks, and leaving.
Squeak – you said it! but the married women here don’t make much either.
elbendi – that is close to the dumbest thing i ever heard. if your commitment to chinuch habanim is tied to how big your paycheck is then keep the heck away from my kids! A good teacher or rebbe NEEDs and DESERVES the pay, but they wouldn’t dare treat their responsibility to the children as you describe.
I worked in a school where they had no money for three full payperiods and you know what? People were angry, they made demands, but NOT ONE of those teachers even considered turning their backs on their students – why? because of their COMMITTMENT to them. I am not advocating for that, i am telling you what a REAL teacher does.
and if you take on a job that doesn’t have enough pay to make you committed, and you know that full well in advance, and you chose to use that as an excuse not to behave with commitment in return, than you are a fraud.
so nice to see how people view the job of educating our kids. Any good rebbes/teachers out there want to help me bop these guys in the nose?August 14, 2015 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #1097200
Maternity leave is six weeks, and it does wreak havoc on some students’ years.
If you look at getting married as selfish, you have a great tayna. If you look at it as rotzon Hashem, it’s not so simple. I don’t think it’s fair to call a woman who wants to get married uncommitted to the other responsibilities in her life.
From a practical perspective, if you make employment contingent upon not dating, you’re severely limiting your pool of qualified teachers.
I’m not at all trying to be dismissive of the problem – the students do suffer from the instability. I just don’t think disallowing teachers from getting married is an eitzah.August 14, 2015 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #1097201
maternity leave is four weeks in some places.
and yes it wreaks havoc with some years but there are limits to what can be asked of/expected from women.
as far as your next point, you’re playing the word twisting game again.
I said: If they cannot commit to a year of teaching, they have no business teaching!
you decided it translates to:”If you look at getting married as selfish…”
“call a woman who wants to get married uncommitted to the other responsibilities in her life.”
“disallowing teachers from getting married “
there is zero correlation. be committed to dating and getting married, it is the ratzon of Hashem, but DO NOT start a school year if you don’t think you can find a way to finish it, it is a tremendous lack of commitment. There are girls who have found a way to finish the year, there are girls who were honest enough to understand that they should take on a different role if they couldn’t commit to the year. those girls will be real, quality teachers.
and i hate to break it to you – that pool of good teachers will be just fine without teachers like that.August 14, 2015 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #1097202
DY- to your third paragraph: I actually feel that by expanding the employment base to allow such young, inexperienced, and flighty girls to have employment you have limited your pool of qualified teachers. Cheaper labor wins and drives out qualified teachers (perhaps they become administrators?). Offer a good wage and you get more qualified applicants.
i guess you decided to go with the humorous approach :pAugust 14, 2015 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #1097203
Syag – why would the married women make more? They are easily replaced by a sem grad. The same would be a problem for Rabbeim if the oilem had not taken active steps to ensure living wages were paid.August 14, 2015 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #1097204WolfishMusingsParticipant
No hiring unmarried girls as Morahs.
You are aware, of course, that discrimination on the basis of marital status is illegal.
The WolfAugust 14, 2015 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #1097205
squeak – true, true. We do have a school here (maybe two) that had a policy that any single girl who wanted a job had to sign that she was committed to finishing the year. The girls had a choice, never did anyone think it was a request not to date or get married. It was a request to be committed to the children in your charge. take it or leave it, in august. We should have more of that but too many people in the other schools seem to believe that committing to the year means we don’t want them dating.
hey squeak – if they offer them more money, how will that suddenly free up the boy who they were moving for?August 14, 2015 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #1097206Happy Go Lucky!!Participant
And I don’t appreciate what they do in other schools (for financial concerns), they hire new teachers, young girls straight off the boat, every year.August 14, 2015 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #1097207
In 90% of the cases the girls marry boys who don’t have jobs or real jobs anyways. Why can’t they just move to where the kallah is teaching so she can finish the year and then go to Lakewood or EY after? I don’t think that’s too much to ask from someone who has no job!August 14, 2015 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #1097208
More or less every city with frum yidden has a kollel nowadays they could park themselves in for less than a year.August 14, 2015 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #1097209
If the hiring pool is closed off to such girls, say in a legal way such as requiring them to sign a contract to finish the year or pay penalties, the supply of applicants goes down. Wages go up to retain the committed teachers, since they are no longer threatened by girls just looking for a parking spot.August 14, 2015 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #1097210
learning IS a REAL job, and you are right about the kollels but wrong that you can just up and switch. You are obviously trolling, or at least trying, maybe your mom needs some help in the kitchen instead?August 14, 2015 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #1097211
Also syag I’m glad we agree on the fundamental point here but from personal experience with the family I know maternity leave can be just as disruptive. Once someone has two kids (boy + girl) they had fulfilled the mitzvah of pru urvu and then the principal of osek bmitzvah patur min hamitzvah should apply. You can stop having kids until you stop teaching or indeed limit maternity leave to a couple of weeks. All teachers I knew took a month and a half to two months (almost a fourth of a school year!)August 14, 2015 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #1097212
show me someone who supports themselves fully solely from learning and then I will consider it a real job. If I was learning full time I’d be broke and my family would starve. What sort of job is that?August 14, 2015 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #1097213
Syag, you also said:
me: I said that if you are more worried about yourself than the class of girls you are teaching…
it’s all about shidduchim. to heck with the kids…
It’s a matter of priorities. I don’t think you’d say the same thing if a teacher wouldn’t commit to stay on even if a family member became ill ch”v and she had to take care of her/him.
Because I think marriage is a high priority, I don’t think a girl is in any way unqualified if she teaches and dates, even if the result would be leaving.
Squeak, if the finances weren’t an issue, I’d agree with you in theory. Another point to consider, though: if they didn’t hire single teachers, those young women would find other jobs, and there would be a smaller pool of married women available to teach.August 14, 2015 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #1097214
yes, i said that if you are more worried about yourself than the class you are teaching – which means that you are not willing to
A) do some kind of cheshbon to stay til june
B)CHOOSE A DIFFERENT JOB
It has NOTHING to do with whether or not you get married. the selfish is on the priority, not the marriage.
regarding it’s all about shidduchim. to heck with the kids…:
again (and again?) if you use this line to excuse yourself from needing to PLAN BETTER so that you can get married AND finish the year, than you have messed up sense of commitment.
you may just have to stop trying to change it to something else. marriage is a very high priority, but only someone with a sense of responsibility deserves a teaching position. Your attempt to indicate that my being concerned for the childrens well being indicates a lack of priority toward marriage is twisted and wrong. you seem to be indicating that as long as you are doing something important, the kids can be left to chaos and i am saying that marriage IS a priority and the children ALSO ARE a priority and there is NO reason in the world that both cant be considered top.
and the comment about an illness in the family is a red herring. who in the world plans for that in august. seriously, the whole point of this thread was about making decisions in august based on your plans for the year and how expendable you consider the children in relation to your plans.August 14, 2015 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #1097215
Finances are not the issue. A mature experienced teacher does not need 2 assistants and 1/3 of an administrator. You get a higher student to teacher ratio but one that is manageable by more capable staff.August 14, 2015 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #1097216
one of my friends had ilness in the family that was going to take a lot of her focus so she took off the year from teaching
one of my friends was having a difficult pregnancy and didn’t know how consistent she could be so she took the year off of teaching
one of my friends had a child who was out of school and would need attention so she took the year off of teaching.
these were all teachers who live paycheck to aycheck but could NOT imagine starting a year with half a head. Hahsem found them ways to pay their bills.
those are real teachers.August 14, 2015 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #1097217
You do realize that the only reason BMG can enforce the freezer clause is because the guys are getting ready and going on dates during the time he would be normally be learning in yeshiva. The Morah is dating on her own time. Even if the Morah’s contract had a no marring clause, it would be unenforceable both in secular and Jewish court. Most of these girls don’t have any assets nor are they being paid great salaries so you can’t fine them and as far as using the school as a reference, I doubt she will use them.
You also realize that the pay is only $1-2 thousand a month for 10 months. If you want the Morah to wait until after the school yearto get married you will need to bribe them . For example offer to pay for the wedding if she gets married after the school year. ( A small wedding can cost over $10,000 and up , which is almost the annual Morah’s salary) Another alternative, is to have a spare apartment which the newlyweds can live in for free until the end of the school year.
Even if the Morah signed the contract, if she gets engaged she should tell her employer. If they fire her and hold back pay she can sue them in civil court and/or go to Dept of Labor and get unemployment assuming she worked more than three months on the books. The Dept. of Labor will get her any back pay held by an employer. If she goes to a Jewish court the yeshiva may be forced to pay her for lost wages for the period of time from the date fired until the wedding and any back pay they withheld.August 14, 2015 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #1097218
“show me someone who supports themselves fully solely from learning and then I will consider it a real job. If I was learning full time I’d be broke and my family would starve”.
If you are on govt. programs you wouldn’t starve and as far as being broke many people with good jobs are also broke.August 14, 2015 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #1097219
I know myself when I was still in yeshiva in the mir I became ill one zman and had to finish the zman in the states because I had to have surgery and needed to go to the hospital for rehab part of the time afterward. My family’s city didn’t have the biggest kollel but I had somewhere where I could learn every day. I happened to get a chavrusa for morning seder only because that was all I could handle but I could have got one for afternoon seder as well. Granted wasn’t the most productive zman but it was necessary due to my situation. Why can’t a newlywed chosson take it upon himself to learn where his kallah is teaching just until she finishes the year?!August 14, 2015 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #1097220
Syag, do you think it is feasible for every unmarried teacher to plan things so that she doesn’t need to leave her job if she gets married? I don’t. I do know of cases where the young couples lived within driving distance of her job until the school year was over. I think this is admirable and proper, but again, not always feasible. I also don’t think it’s feasible or beneficial to have seminary or high school grads wait indefinitely to teach until they’re married.
In the cases you mentioned, they took the entire year off. What if something came up in the middle of the year? I do not think it’s a red herring, I think it demonstrates that we sometimes have to prioritize, even when two things are both extremely important.
Squeak, sure it’s about finances, you just seem to think that schools are over allocating funds towards administration and assistants. In general, I don’t think that’s the case.
Also, there’s still the supply issue. There simply aren’t enough married teachers to staff the schools, and that would only get worse if policy became not to hire single teachers.August 14, 2015 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #1097223
DY do you think it’s feasible for a girl to do something other than teach?
I would bet you these girls never even entertained the thought that you need to finish the year.
and i would put money on it.
do you know why? because nobody is teaching them the value of teaching. nobody is teaching them the damage it can do to the kids. nobody is teaching them that teaching children is an unbelievably important priority. priority. They are not being told that. they are being told that when you come home from seminary you teach til you get married. marriage is THE priority. just teach til it happens. What kind of a teacher is that?
you keep arguing that if i say you can’t leave in the middle, it means you shouldn’t get married. Besides the fact that i never said that, why in the world do you insist that these children should have a lichatchila that is harmful to them? why cant the girl place finishing the year among her priorities? And why in the world cant she just do something else. You say a lot about my seeming lack of priority for marriage, you seem to be very strong in your lack of priority for both education and children.August 14, 2015 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #1097224
Why can’t a newlywed chosson take it upon himself to learn where his kallah is teaching just until she finishes the year?!
Precisely for the reason you said – he might not have the most productive zman.
I know someone who did that (her job wasn’t teaching). The chosson was not being productive, and as I perceived it, it caused sholom bayis issues as well.
Eventually, they moved to Lakewood, and her employer relocated her to their NJ office.August 14, 2015 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #1097225
I am sorry, not having a place to learn is one thing, not having a productive zman does not automatically come before chinuch habanim.August 14, 2015 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #1097226
i also don’t see evidence that there are not enough married women to staff the schools. Since nobody is at home with their kids anymore (a seperate issue), there are more than enough available. that may just be a geographic factor.August 14, 2015 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #1097227
I did not mean you specifically, let’s please not make this personal. I’m just trying to frame this in terms of prioritizing, rather than dismissing something as unimportant.
I do think she should make a strong effort to finish the year, but don’t think that should or could be an iron clad commitment.
As far as how much his learning needs to suffer for her achrayus to her students, I think that needs to be decided on a case by case basis.
She is entitled to chose to teach, she is entitled to get married, and at that point, it is not only her decision to make.August 14, 2015 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #1097228
when i said I had a less productive zman maybe it was half as productive because I’m not a top learner (which is why I went into business after a year in kollel) but a guy who is claiming to be a top learner should be able to have a productive zman anywhere. If not then why should my daughters mess up their year so a mediocre learner could feel a little more productive? Stupidity!August 14, 2015 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #1097229
I think it’s simple demographics. We are b”H growing, so we need more and more teachers, so perforce, we need some inexperienced ones.
If, as you say, those who won’t commit to stay the whole year no matter what shouldn’t teach, they will obviously begin other careers, and that will deplete the supply of teachers. I don’t think forcing them to commit (contractually or morally) benefits klal Yisroel.August 14, 2015 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #1097230
Sorry, yb123, you can discuss priorities, but calling caring about better learning stupidity, for any level learner, is unacceptable.August 14, 2015 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #1097231
those who are real teachers, will commit even if they get married. whether or not it works out is in Hashem’s hands but they will commit.
(there is nothing wrong with an inexperienced teacher, there is a lot wrong with a girl who is teaching because she has nothing else to do til she gets married.)
as far as starting a career? really? these girls can get jobs as reading tutors, floating subs, permanent subs, office work, secretarial work – all within the same school building without it interfering with a class if she leaves.
Teaching girls priorities and a sense of commitment would be wonderful for klal yisroel. certainly better than what they are learning right now…August 14, 2015 11:26 pm at 11:26 pm #1097232
those who are real teachers, will commit even if they get married
That’s where we disagree. I think someone can be a “real teacher” yet still have the priority of giving herself the best chance of getting married (which might mean committing to move to his location), as Hashem wants her to.August 14, 2015 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #1097233
but not without considering staying as a top priority.
the kind of teachers i am looking for for my children will be doing both.August 14, 2015 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #1097234
A top priority, or the top priority?August 14, 2015 11:50 pm at 11:50 pm #1097235
re read every one of my posts. you said marriage is the priority, i said both. every time.August 16, 2015 2:19 am at 2:19 am #1097236
I’m asking about a situation where there is a conflict.
I’m trying to figure out how far you take your position.
Do you actually have taynas on teachers for getting married and leaving during the school year?
Do you think a teacher should actually turn down a shidduch prospect with a fine bochur who would live out of driving distance of where she teaches?August 16, 2015 3:48 am at 3:48 am #1097237
It appears that on one hand you want the Morah to be committed to work a full school year. On the other hand they are hardly paying them anything and there is no incentive to stay.
Let’s face it no Morah no matter how dedicated she is, is not going to turn down a shidduch just so she can finish the school year.
Let’s say there is have a no marrying clause in the Morah’s contract and she finds a boy and gets engaged. The most the Yeshiva can do is fire her and possibly hold back two weeks pay or about $500 – 1,000 gross or $350- $700 net. The Morah has nothing to lose and goes on unemployment and tells them (Dept of Labor) that her employer held back her last check. They will get her, her back pay and the yeshiva will have to hire her back. The Morah is not interested in the job and the Yeshiva will now have to prove that the Morah’s not interested or face fines.
In fact the firing of the Morah maybe in the best interests of the Morah. This way she collects unemployment while planning her wedding . It also doesn’t solve the problem as the yeshiva needs to find a replacement anyway. All it does is increase the unemployment premiums that they have to pay.
A better solution is for the yeshiva to promise at least subsidized housing if she finishes the year. This together with help in finding a kollel for the groom will help the yeshiva retain qualified teachers.August 16, 2015 3:59 am at 3:59 am #1097238
“the kind of teachers i am looking for for my children will be doing both.”
This type of teacher is hard to find and if this is what you want maybe home schooling or private tutors is the way to go.August 16, 2015 4:10 am at 4:10 am #1097239
DY – we rarely agree but sometimes the subject of the disagreement surprises me as this one does. Did you really say that there would be a shortage of teachers if there was a policy not to hire every years’ new seminary crop? Just about every frum woman is either employed by or would love to be employed by a school. I find it hard to believe that mothers would suddenly stop seeing school jobs as convenient simply because of a policy not to hire single girls… au contraire, oversupply would still be a problem.
Your later post to Syag seemed to clarify tbat you meant they would start other careers, but that is laughable. These are not ambitious girls. These are girls who shun college and corporate environments for ideological reasons. What career opportunities do they have other than babysitting and worki g for a school?August 16, 2015 4:49 am at 4:49 am #1097240
Squeak, I’ve seen/heard of a number of married women who tried a career switch to teaching and failed.
There’s an advantage to maturity and life experience, but also an advantage to youthful idealism and nights free to prepare for class.
When you make employment conditional on factors not relevant to the actual job, you limit the number of candidates and lower the overall quality of teachers (Syag might argue that this is relevant to the qualifications for the job, but I disagree).
So sure, you might fill the actual positions, but with less qualified (certainly in the long run) teachers.
What do you think would happen if employment were conditional on staying the year? Would they limit their shidduchim to boys who were maskim to live there until the end of the year? Would they not take the job and stay home?
There might be some who would stay home, but I disagree with your generalization that these girls are simply unambitious. I think many are idealistic, but if teaching wasn’t an option, would go into other fields. Some options off the top of my head: computer programming, web design, therapy, medical billing, marketing.August 16, 2015 9:59 am at 9:59 am #1097241
With Universal pre-k the state of New York is paying for all students provided that there is limited religious instruction .
If the yeshivas don’t hire the seminary girls they will be hired by the universal pre-k providers. Who will the parent want a middle aged tired teacher who can’t keep up with the toddlers or the teenage teacher who is full of vim & vigor. Some of these pre-k may decide to start a first grade and then a second and since they are the only ones hiring the seminary girls the yeshivas can’t compete and before you know it what started as a pre-k is a full fledged yeshiva.
Supply and demand dictates that the fewer applicants the higher the salary. Likewise once a larger number of girls go into different fields such as programming, medical billing etc… it will open new fields for the middle aged woman and there will be fewer candidates for these morah jobs.
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