Fresh Broccoli

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Fresh Broccoli

Viewing 49 posts - 1 through 49 (of 49 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #604762
    cshapiro
    Member

    how would you check fresh broccoli or cauliflowerfor bugs? is there a kosher company that sells it checked, fresh not frozen?

    #897504
    aurora77
    Participant

    Hello cshapiro, my MomMom used to soak fresh broccoli in a salt water mixture for a while before cooking it or eating it to address that issue. I don’t know anything about kosher companies that check their fresh produce for bugs, but maybe this salt water soak can help eliminate any that are present.

    #897505
    RebRY
    Member

    As far as I know is only frozen broccoli can be used. Eden is the best frozen brand.

    #897506
    mghanooni
    Member
    #897507
    smartcookie
    Member

    My Rav says not to eat fresh broccoli as it cannot be checked right. But that doesn’t mean it’s your psak as well. Ask your LOR I guess?

    Just as a side point, every single recipe I came across with broccoli, can be substituted for frozen. Maybe try that. I buy the greenhouse grown from Eden and that is all I’m allowed to buy according to this Rav.

    #897508
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    the way the vaad of queens does it is spray it with a strong stream of water after applying veggie soap, wash off the vegie soap and spray again and check water (the broccoli should be upside down)

    alternatively bodek sells frozen broccoli

    #897509
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    btw hows married life?

    #897510
    kapusta
    Participant

    I think the Star K has info about checking vegetables on their website.

    *kapusta*

    #897511
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    also btw the OK has an app for checking vegitables

    #897512
    Sam2
    Participant

    I don’t understand the whole problem with broccoli. Soak it, rinse it, then boil/cook it and it will be fine.

    #897513
    mommamia22
    Participant

    Rabbi Falk (Gateshead) has a booklet called “Madrich l’bedikat tolaim”.

    He goes through all the vegetables and fruits and explains how to check them.

    He explains that for broccoli, it’s easiest to remove the florets (to discard) and just rinse and inspect the stems.

    The florets can be checked, but insects are harder to see because they tend to be darker in color, closely resembling the color of the broccoli. He recommends using a white or light yellow bowl, filling it with warm water (which causes the insects to loosen their grip) without salt. He says salt clouds the water.

    Dip the broccoli in the water and run your thumb over some of the florets to loosen them. Swirl the broccoli in the water vigorously a few times, then remove and shake it over the water like a thermometer. Check the water surface after half a minute and remove anything suspicious onto a white napkin or white paper plate. Next, inspect the bottom the same way after pouring off a bit of the water.

    The broccoli is edible if you find nothing.

    Cauliflower is considered easier as infestation is less common. Cut off the bottom primary stem and accompanying leaves. Cut the cauliflower into florets and cut those in half, bending them a bit so you can see clearly. Soak it in salt water as a precaution (and check the surface of the water). It can be used if no insects are found. He says to discard the top of the stems if you find a green fly or thrips as it would be impossible to check the rest carefully enough for further infestation. Black flies (up to two on a head) are not considered problematic. You remove them and do what was written above to make sure all is clear (I actually look at the head wrapped in plastic before I buy. I have sometimes seen a fly on top of the head just inside the plastic wrap).

    #897514
    aurora77
    Participant

    That is very interesting mommamia22 … I have always wondered how the salt works to get rid of bugs.

    #897515
    Curiosity
    Participant

    I always wondered… We say bugs are only assur if they are visible, right? What if the bug is visible as a speck, but it’s impossible to identify as a bug with the unaided eye? Is that bug still assur?

    #897516
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    curiosity,

    believe me the bugs on broccoli dont look like a speck,

    however to answer ur question it’s a machlokes some say assur some say muttar, i follow the shittas that say muttar (makes my job easier)

    #897517
    thehock
    Member

    A kashrus expert whom I observed doing a demonstration of bedikas tolaim a number of years ago showed that if you parboil broccoli, then slice open the florets, you will find (or hopefully, not find) blackened bugs (somewhat like sesame seeds). For this reason, he explained, fresh broccoli should never be used. Parboiling is required to see if those bugs are there. The bugs are large enough to be observed but their color makes them very difficult (though not impossible) to identify in fresh broccoli. It was my understanding that the kosher companies either provide a controlled environment or check in such a fashion that there is no mi’ut hamatzuy.

    #897518

    sam2: “I don’t understand the whole problem with broccoli. Soak it, rinse it, then boil/cook it and it will be fine. “

    What will be fine? The boiled bugs?

    Curiosity: if it’s a speck, then it’s visible.

    #897519
    twisted
    Participant

    Removing florets won’t solve all problems. Cabbage loopers, a white or white/green or black caterpillar like thing about 1/2″ generally lodges in the stem joints. I learned this after soaking, soaping, trimming and checking florets in cauliflower.

    #897520
    Ðash®
    Participant

    He explains that for broccoli, it’s easiest to remove the florets (to discard) and just rinse and inspect the stems.

    Thats like peeling an orange just to eat the peel.

    #897521
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    curiosity;your point is well taken. In reality bugs would only be ossur if you can see them with the naked eye. Using any artificial means (even glasses) really do not make them “ossur’ because, very simply, if you use artificial means- “ein ledovor sof”. Why stop at glasses, magnifying glasses, microscopes up to the most sophisticated magnifying microscopes.

    Nonetheless, a “ruach’ of “chumros’ has taken root in recent years and so, you have all these convoluting means to ‘clean’ vegetables.

    In practice, I do the normal thing like soaking in salt water, rinsing the vegetables carefully and if you so require-repeat.

    You cannot require the masses to go to abnormal length as we are not angels.

    #897522
    TheGoq
    Participant

    How does freezing the broccoli at the plant remove the bugs?

    #897523
    smartcookie
    Member

    The Goq- that’s the reason our Rav allows only greenhouse grown.

    #897524
    mommamia22
    Participant

    Aurora,

    The salt in cold water is supposed to work the same way as plain warm water (causing the bugs to loosen their grip). Apparently, the salt clouds the water, though, so I guess that method (salt water) is only good for some vegetables. I’m not sure what makes those veggies different, though.

    #897525
    oomis
    Participant

    UGH, I so do not want to eat veggies anymore.

    #897526
    Sam2
    Participant

    Curiosity: I believe it’s a Machlokes Haposkim and I was told that the majority hold it has to be identifiable as a bug, not just a speck. The issue is that there are things that would have been identifiable as a bug before you washed and killed them but now aren’t. Those may not be eaten.

    Choc: Unless I’m misinformed, the bugs in broccoli melt under high heat. There’s also a Sfek Sfeka to rely on if they don’t.

    Rob: Glasses are necessary because the naked eye is determined by the average person’s vision. We assume that that means 20/20 (even though it probably means something closer to 20/40, especially for Jews).

    #897527
    Curiosity
    Participant

    I worked as a mashgiach in several restaurants over summers. I would be extra careful with bugs, and if I wasnt sure what the speck was, I would wash the food again. Eventually my eyes started to hurt from staring at these tiny specks for hours at a time to try and make out legs or heads. The thought went through my mind that the Torah in its darchei noam couldn’t possibly be expecting us to strain our eyes so badly over a tiny black speck floating in a vat of water. It just felt like “too much hishtadlus”…

    #897528
    aurora77
    Participant

    Thank you mommamia22… very interesting!

    #897529
    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    The rea question is where do you buy it? I cant find it ANYWHERE!

    #897530
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    sam2-did the tanaim and amoroim have glasses??? At best, they were very expensive and unreliable, at worst no one had them. So, why do we insist that we use a microscope to see bugs? You do know that there are millions of bacteria eveywhere, on our skin, in our beds, on our food and those are visible with a nuclear microscope and yet we don’t think to go that far. where is the limit??

    #897531
    shein
    Member

    rob: If a Tanna or Amora’s vision wasn’t at par, surely he would ask someone else with good vision to check rather than rely on his own subpar vision.

    #897532
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Curiosity,

    The thought went through my mind that the Torah in its darchei noam couldn’t possibly be expecting us to strain our eyes so badly over a tiny black speck floating in a vat of water.

    Maybe the Torah expects us to just eat something else. You’re completely misapplying the concept of d’rocheho darchei noam. According to your interpretation, I could eat pig if I really had a hard time abstaining.

    rob,

    where is the limit??

    Sam2 gave a very sensible limit – visible to the normal human eye. If someone has worse than typical vision, that wouldn’t make foods muttar to him which are assur to others. No one’s arguing for requiring a microscope; you’re creating a straw man.

    #897533
    Curiosity
    Participant

    DY you’re stretching what I said. All I’m saying is that it shouldn’t be physically painful to have to eat something that’s inherently kosher. RoB put it well.. where’s the limit?

    I find it very difficult to imagine vegetables with soil still on them, being washed in clay vessels, with no soap would have been inspected for black specks that are too small to identify as bug or dirt. The average Jew 3000 years ago didn’t have crystal clear running water, light-up cutting boards, or steel spoons to scoop black specks from tubs of water. Yet, they still ate their veggies somehow. Unless we have a bigger chiyuv of hishtadlus to not eat bugs (b/c of technology), I don’t see why it was okay for them to do it one way but not for us.

    #897534
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Curiosity,

    If you could prove to me that two hundred years ago they ate the same vegetables as we do, with the same level of infestation as we have today, I’d eat them too. However, we have higher levels of infestation than they did, and we have types of vegetables which were uncommon.

    There’s no reason why it can’t be difficult to eat food, even if “inherently kosher”.

    #897535
    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: Our levels of infestation are higher? I would have thought that with modern farming and the use of some (still-legal) pesticides that our levels of infestation would be much, much lower. And we do see some Achronim advocating not eating certain fruits. But no one Assered all vegetables, which is what they would have had to have done if our standards were applied to them. Am I the only person who finds it more than curious that the Achronim don’t explain how to check individual vegetables. Pashtus is they just looked and if they saw nothing then it was fine.

    I did once hear something on this topic from a tremendous Talmid Chacham. He said that back in the day, it was hard to live as a human being, let alone a Jew. You would have to work a ton just to get a tiny bit of food and nighttime was almost unusable because candles were expensive and there were no lights. Nowadays, where it’s much, much easier just to be a human being, we can afford to place more restrictions on ourselves as Jews.

    #897536

    Sam2: Unless I’m misinformed, the bugs in broccoli melt under high heat. There’s also a Sfek Sfeka to rely on if they don’t.

    That’s very interesting – something new to me. But it can’t be universally accepted, or broccoli wouldn’t be considered so difficult to check. Do you have a source?

    #897537
    mommamia22
    Participant

    Oomis

    The one thing that helps me reframe the bugs on vegetables issue, is that I reconsider that they typically only go to healthier foods, and rarely to items such as chocolate or chips. I figure, those tiny buggers are onto something (literally and figuratively!).

    #897538
    Curiosity
    Participant

    DY – Sam2 is correct. They didn’t have chemically engineered pesticides and bug repellants back then. Mistama they had a much higher incidence of infestation than we do today. Also, broccoli is an “Old World food”. They had it back in the day.. according to Wikipedia it has been cultivated since the 6th century BCE. That’s around 2600 years ago.

    #897539

    Sam2 – hmm, I think I made a fool of myself, there. You’re joking, of course.

    #897540
    Sam2
    Participant

    Choc: I wasn’t joking at all. Why did you think I was joking?

    #897541
    SayIDidIt™
    Participant

    Did someone say broccoli? YUCK!!!

    #897543
    thehock
    Member

    @Sam2,

    Unless I’m misinformed, the bugs in broccoli melt under high heat.

    Could you find a source for that? The following link from OU’s website, confirming my previous post, seems to indicate otherwise:

    http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/consumer/recipes/chinese_chicken_pasta_salad_pareve/

    It is virtually impossible to perform a comprehensive inspection on raw broccoli. Parboil the broccoli for ten seconds to soften the florets and stems. An additional benefit of parboiling is that aphids often turn from green to brown and the florets from light to dark lush green. The contrast of colors makes the insects more easily detectable after this process. Submerge in cold water immediately after parboiling to preserve the flavor and firmness of the vegetable.

    The parboiling could be the reason why frum brands of broccoli are offered frozen rather than fresh.

    #897544
    MeemaYehudis
    Member

    Hi Sweetie, Git Voch. I was told by a baki in kashrus that one can avoid problems with bugs by only buying Grade A produce when buying fresh vegetables. Naturally, they should still be checked.

    A friend told me that her mother would hold fresh broccoli over a flame, & if there were bugs present, they would fall out when exposed to the heat. I tried it once, and bugs did fall out, but if no bugs fall out, what is the proof that there were none present?

    I also once heard in a shiur that soaking vegetables in salt water has the result of the bugs clinging more tightly. Though the florets are good, if I were to use fresh broccoli, I would cut off the florets & only use the stalks. I haven’t used fresh cauliflower in years, and I really miss it! I still think it’s safer to buy frozen vegetables with a reliable hashgocha.

    Your Meema Yehudis

    #897545
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    See Ohr Hachayim Hakadosh on parshas Shemini regarding infestation of produce.

    #897546
    DovidM
    Member

    My family separates the florets from the stalks, puts the florets in a bowl of salted water, let it sit for 10 minutes, then discards the water, and refills the bowl, adding some vinegar and a small amount of dish detergent to the water. The first soak dislodges some bugs, but more are dislodged on the second soak. The final step is to discard the water, and then pour hot, but not boiling, water over the florets. If bugs are still turning up, then we just use the stems.

    #897547
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    There may be better pesticides now but there are more crazy people out there insisting we can’t use them. That was never an issue then.

    DY – I was going to say the same thing you said in your first post!

    I often hear people in the CR looking for ways to make things easier so that they can have permission to have what they want. I have worked very hard to try to manage instead with all the available things out there. If it’s that hard to check for bugs, eat a chocolate chip cookie instead. Works for me. And don’t tell me you can’t live without broccoli, most people do just fine.

    #897548
    Rav Tuv
    Participant

    Sam2: Unless I’m misinformed, the bugs in broccoli melt under high heat. There’s also a Sfek Sfeka to rely on if they don’t.

    Hmm..just noticed this. We only say Sfek Sfeka on d’rabbonin. Insects in broccoli is d’orayssa so no sfek sfeka.

    #897549
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    So these people who joined us for a meal on rosh hashana brought fresh figs that they had picked.

    So we were discussing (before hand, knowing it was coming), that figs may be wormy. So my bro says it is a problem. But I says, look, they just picked them. So if they are wormy, it was maslia b’mechubar. So I ate them.

    #897550
    Toi
    Participant

    i found a worm growing from a branch. so i ate it.

    #897551
    Sam2
    Participant

    MZ: ? Safek D’rabannan is Lehakel. Of course you can say a Sfek Sfeka on a D’oraisa.

    #897552
    Rav Tuv
    Participant

    Sam2 Hold on…if a safek doraysa we go l’chumrah kal v’ chomer a sfek sfeka on a d’orayasa would go l’chumra hence you can only have a sfek sfeka to be meikal on a d’rabbonan. You can’t have a sfek sfeka on a d’oraysa l’hakel.

Viewing 49 posts - 1 through 49 (of 49 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.