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Do you ever get invited out on Friday night and from when Maariv is over till finally getting round to Kiddush it can be over an hour?
Do you find this annoying?
Obviously if there’s a good reason that’s one thing, but just draying avek and schmoozing can be tedious.
Did you promise yourself you’d never do that when you are hosting? How were you in keeping that promise to this day?
If i accept an invitation for a Shabbos meal its the hosts call on how things are done are there irritations? yes , but a home cooked meal in a warm family environment is a good trade off, I also dreaded the long time between the last course and bentching but its their house so its their call.
If we’re the ones doing the inviting, I’ll call the other husband on Thursday night or Friday afternoon, and I’ll tell him where I’m davening, what time I expect to be home, and what time I’d like to start the meal. That way everybody’s on the same page, and we have minimal delays.
My wife knows I like to get started as soon as everyone’s home, so we try to minimize the conversation until after we make homotzee.
If we’re the ones going out, I try to find out where the other person’s davening, and we try to time our arrival so they have a minimal delay.
personally, when i was a kid i used to hate the wait. Now its just part of the oneg shabbos, the peace and relaxkite. Many a time these meals are for getting caught up on each other’s lives which is hard to do during the week. In these cases specifically i wud say the shmoozing is the ikur and the food is the toful.
When I have guests I typically rush through shalom aleichem and eishes chayil so they won’t be hungry. Many people do not eat much on Fridays and I believe it is not right to prolong things. It is even preferable to skip eishes chayil if one notices that a guest is exceptionally hungry and I have seen it done by talmedei chachomim.
??”? ??”? ??”? ?
Under normal circumstances, you’re supposed to start right away.
Worst is when you get invited somewhere and then the people decide they are making early shabbos.
Did Hashem make early shabbos when he created the world? I’ll prove not–Odom Harison was created bein hashemashos, so you wouldn’t even exist if He had. Thus, under the principle of “I think therefore I am,” since I am able to ask that question, I must exist, in which case Hashem must have not made early shabbos.
When I visit family, they always want to make early shabbos. I tell them: you do whatever you need to do, and I’ll show up whenever I can show up. This has the added value of not having to sit through sholom aleichem, aishes chayil, etc.
oyoy, I love that word “relaxkite”.
I vote we immediately add it to the official CR Dictionary, 1st ed.
There’s nothing like the relaxkite at a warm, inviting, fragrant, Friday night seuda.
Having said that, it’s always a good idea, when you’ve invited guests who were not in your kitchen Friday afternoon for the requisite piece of fresh, hot potato kugel, to save the relaxkite for after Hamotzi. You don’t want to enjoy the beautiful Zemiros on the cheshbon of your famished guests.
I usually don’t invite guests for Friday night in the summer, only in the winter. When Shabbos starts very late, I don’t like to make anyone miss out on their sleep by having a long meal. Many people work long hours during the week, and look forward to a good night of sleep on Shabbos.
Popa, in some parts of the world, making shabbos normal time would mean lighting candles at 9.30 or later in the summer. So we make early shabbos (with plag hamincha, which means lighting at 8pm the latest).
I am of the opinion that the meal should be started straight away – as jbaldy said, many people are hungry. As I tell my husband, everyone can talk as much as they like after kiddush and challa, but some of us are waiting to eat.
Do you think Hashem only kept shabbos in some parts of the world?
No, but try living in a place where, in midsummer, shkia is after 10pm and shabbos can go out at 11.30pm, and then you can wonder why we choose to bring in shabbos with plag. It means not starting the friday night meal at midnight, which is hard enough to do just for shavuos.Just out of interest, where do you live and what’s the latest time for shkia in the summer?
Worst is when you get invited somewhere and then the people decide they are making early shabbos.
We got an invitation today for this Friday night, and the people inviting us make Shabbat early. I was able to use that as an excuse not to come, since two of my kids will be working and won’t make it back in time for early Shabbat. (That, plus it’s my youngest kid’s last Shabbat before she goes into the army.)
Early Shabbat is nice in theory, but we’d never be able to do it on a regular basis.
Did Hashem keep ???’ ????
PBA Wrote:
Odom Harison was created bein hashemashos, so you wouldn’t even exist if He had.
I’m Sorry Reb Popa,
Would have been a good proof if only it were true but-
This is wrong!!! It is clearly stated in the Gemoro in Sanhedrin that Odaom Harishon was created ON EREV SHABBOS!
He even had children on the same day, and ate from the eitz hadaas and was sent out of Gan Eden ALL on YOM SHISHI!!
??????? ?? ?”?
?”? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ????
???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??
I’ve never had to defend PBA before, but I can explain a bit what he’s trying to say.
In last week’s pirkei ovos, there were 10 things created bein hashmoshos. Now granted Odom wasn’t one of them, but clearly Hashem didn’t make Shabbos early.
Takahmamash I want to thank your daughter for taking this sacrifice on herself to serve her country I wish her every success.
Nu, I’ve made mistakes before. Still, I did have the idea in my head somehow. And maybe a different medrash says otherwise.
geordie, are you seriously trying to say that here in Gateshead you would be happy to make shabbos with shkia? Don’t you think even making early shabbos is already quite late?
As it turns out, popa’s wrong, popa’s right, and popa’s wrong, but I think still, popa’s right.
Popa seems to be wrong (unless there’s takah a different medrash) about Odom Horishon.
He’s right that HKB”H did melochoh bain hashmoshos.
He’s wrong that this has anything to do with us. HKB”H was able to be metzamtzem, which we can’t do (see Rashi on Beraishis 2:2), and, in fact, we have a mitzvah of tosefes Shabbos, and adding more time is a hiddur.
He is right, though, that early Shabbos is not really halachically ideal in most situations; there’s the issue of tarti d’sasri.
First of all, early Shabbos is a Kiyum Asei D’Oraisa according to almost everyone except the Rambam.
Second of all, DY beat me to the Rashi that HKBH doesn’t have Tosefes Shabbos because He can be Metzamtzem while we can’t (thus, Tosefes Shabbos would actually take away from His perfection and thus it’s not Shayach to Him at all).
Third of all, many places on Earth are just not Shayach to take in Shabbos late in the summer (try London). I know big Rabbonim who are not Makpid on the Mishnah B’rurah’s Chumra to have a K’zayis of bread after Tzeis Friday night because they are asleep before then, as Tzeis can get close to or after midnight (especially if you want to hold 72 or 90 minutes or even degrees). So people fall back to Ikkar HaDin (that early Shabbos works) because there really is no choice.
There is no place on earth that shabbos comes in before the time that I am likely to finish working on any other night.
Making early shabbos is an extreme luxury. I’m glad you all have it.
You work?
This isn’t work?
PBA: Shkiya in London is currently after 9. Two weeks ago it was after 9:30. I think Paris can approach 10 pm. You work later than that on every other weeknight? I find that hard to believe.
Sam, the CR is open 24/6. (minus bain hashmoshos)
Welcome to the real world.
I recognize that not everyone can get a “good” job these days, but the people being subsidized ought to realize the kind of work that people put into these “good” jobs.
Popa, let’s rephrase Sam’s question with slightly different wording; a few weeks ago, even ‘early’ shabbos in Gateshead was at 8.30. Do you really not finish work before then?
In New York, 8.30 is about the time regular shabbos comes in anyway. So perhaps in NY making early shabbos is not a necessity, but like you said a luxury. However, in Gateshead basically everyone brings in early shabbos in the summer, since regular time is just too late.
Sam2: “Third of all, many places on Earth are just not Shayach to take in Shabbos late in the summer (try London). I know big Rabbonim who are not Makpid on the Mishnah B’rurah’s Chumra to have a K’zayis of bread after Tzeis Friday night because they are asleep before then, as Tzeis can get close to or after midnight (especially if you want to hold 72 or 90 minutes or even degrees). So people fall back to Ikkar HaDin (that early Shabbos works) because there really is no choice.”
What about Krias Shema?
Not sure how difficult the MB’s chumra really is. Let’s assume even a 16 hour day, which is longer than most places ever get. London peaks at about 17. Paris at about 15.) So Plag is exactly 100 minutes before Shkiah. So you make kiddush maybe 40 minutes before shkiah. How long do you wait for that Chumrah? My rav holds to wait 50 minutes only unless it is D’oraisa. (Like krias Shema and melacha on Motzoei Shabbos.) But if drabanan or minhag, like Motzoei Taanis, or even temimos on the first night of Shavuos, then go with 50. So how long is it between Kiddush and 50 minutes after shkiah? Not so difficult.
Do you really not finish work before then?
There are certainly some people who work a lot longer than the “typical” 9-5 schedule.
Popa, let’s rephrase Sam’s question with slightly different wording; a few weeks ago, even ‘early’ shabbos in Gateshead was at 8.30. Do you really not finish work before then?
Welcome to the real world.
That “gvir” in shul who you count on to pull the school’s budget? He’s working until midnight while you put your kids to sleep and eat dinner with your family and read bedtime stories and make lag b’omer bbq’s.
Are you assuming that because I live in Gateshead that I am a typical kollel/chinuch wife who has come from a typical kollel family?
I come from a normal, working family, my father works very long hours and is often home late. My husband works extremely hard in his business and is often home late. He is also often working through the night (he is a self-employed business owner) or waking up at 3am to do paperwork that he has no time for during the day. So, yes, I know how late some people work.
In the winter, people finish work early to make shabbos – why not in the summer as well, just because shabbos is later and it seems manageable to do a complete normal work day on Friday?
Midwesterner – your point about krias shema is a good one. However there are many minyanim here which do a mincha/maariv just after plag and then all my husband needs to do is say shema again when he goes to bed. However, if you’re talking about a shabbos meal, let me give you a practical example:
Plag last week – 7.58 – this is what time I lit.
By the time my husband was home from shul it was just before 9. We made kiddush almost straight away.
Shkia was still after 10pm, so that is more than the 50 minutes you proposed, and more than 100 minutes between plag and shkia.
Nightfall was 11.16pm.
Any more comments?
You’re a g’vir?
Its not tznius to eat out, mixing families. Total pritzus. You should see what the gemara in brochos says about what happens.
In the winter, people finish work early to make shabbos – why not in the summer as well, just because shabbos is later and it seems manageable to do a complete normal work day on Friday?
Because I will be fired if I do. During the winter, they accommodate me at great difficulty because I am not allowed to work.
Also, during the winter, I can do that work motzei shabbos.
If you make up the work on Motzaei Shabbos (which, btw, explains the recent dearth of geshmak’e troll threads), why is it such a great difficulty?
Because people want things on Friday during work hours. (9-12)
B”H for religious accommodation.
Chuck Norris can make early shabbos in the summer and still have a “good job”.
Wasn’t America the country where people got fired every Friday afternoon because of shabbos? I find it hard to believe that your boss would fire you if you told him you wanted to finish work at 5pm on Friday in the summer.
chochom-ibber: Please, enlighten me. What does the Gemara in Brachos say about two families sharing a meal? (The only possible thing I can think that you are thinking of is by M’zuman and Nashim V’avadim.)
Wasn’t America the country where people got fired every Friday afternoon because of shabbos? I find it hard to believe that your boss would fire you if you told him you wanted to finish work at 5pm on Friday in the summer.
Welcome to the real world.
Like I said, I do live in the real world. That is a very lazy and pointless way to try and refute someone else’s argument and makes no valid point of your own. You have not actually given us any examples or details of why such a job as the one you might have would not let you finish work at a normal time on a Friday, you just keep on repeating ‘welcome to the real world’, thereby implying that only your life is considered to be the real world and dismissing the fact that others may work just as hard, long hours but still give Friday afternoon the proper respect it deserves. There is a very important inyan of being ready for shabbos by chatzos on Friday, and whilst this may be unrealistic for many in the working world, it is still possible to finish work before plag on a Friday afternoon. If I worked for someone who insisted that I work until 7pm on Friday (as you imply – correct me if this is not the case)I would leave the job. Whilst I understand that this may not be an option for you, I still feel that unless someone works in some place like a hospital, Friday afternoon shifts SHOULD be negotiable, especially in a place that lauds human rights such as the USA.
ou have not actually given us any examples or details of why such a job as the one you might have would not let you finish work at a normal time on a Friday, you just keep on repeating ‘welcome to the real world’, thereby implying that only your life is considered to be the real world and dismissing the fact that others may work just as hard, long hours but still give Friday afternoon the proper respect it deserves.
Welcome to the real world.
I’m an employee. I don’t set my hours. And my hours aren’t negotiable.
I’m glad you think they SHOULD be negotiable, but they aren’t.
And your insinuation that I should leave such a job is unappreciated. I don’t have that luxury. Maybe you have endless suitable jobs at your disposal, but I don’t.
And this has nothing to do with human rights. I took this job willingly, and accepted the terms willingly. You dilute human rights by applying it to this.
Please could you stop saying welcome to the real world. It’s getting tired and pointless. Many people are employees just like you.
Yes, many are, but apparently you don’t know of them.
And frankly, my saying you are clueless is a lot better than the alternative which is that you are completely lacking empathy.
And also selfish–what a thing to suggest, that I walk out on my colleagues at 5 o’clock on Friday and leave them doing my work late Friday night and Saturday.
I’m sorry notasheep, but you have no idea what the business world is like. It’s not such a crazy thing–if you aren’t exposed to it, why would you know?
Popa is making a point with his use of the phrase.
The “real world” includes situations which not everyone is familiar with.
He insists that he has a job which requires him to work late on summer Fridays. Why assume he’s making it up?* There are undoubtedly aspects of your life which popa hasn’t experienced – no two people have the same life, but I would hope that he would understand and respect that.
As long as he is making it home in time for Shabbos, I can’t understand what your issue is.
*Yes, I know, his username link. But I think I’m pretty good at sniffing out when he’s serious.
I’m not assuming anything. And I know the business world very well. Like I said, my father works in business and my husband runs his own business. You clearly haven’t been paying attention. I am neither clueless nor lacking empathy. Most of my friends’ husbands also work in business and put in extremely long hours. So yes, I know many people who work crazy hours in the business world. You are the one making assumptions.
Notasheep, so you know people who work crazy hours and still make early Shabbos. Good for them.
Well, I know someone who works crazy hours and can’t make early Shabbos. His name is popa_bar_abba. His life is apparently not the same as your father’s, husband’s, or friends’ husbands’. You, for some reason, think it is, and that is an assumption, and frankly, I have no idea why you insist on making it.
Running your own business is not the same as being an employee.
Both are harder than the other in different ways.
And your comments are coming across as very clueless. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I’m pretty clueless about running a business. But I know that.
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