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- This topic has 74 replies, 26 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 3 months ago by aries2756.
February 6, 2011 1:24 am at 1:24 am #737354bbubbeeParticipant
Moderation, common sense, all those old-fashioned midos/virtues
Midwest – thank you for understanding that I am not Judging, just trying to bring this topic to the attention of the public.
I think it also falls under ” Lifnei Eiver Lo Sitain Michshal”. We don’t want to be put in a place that people are jealous of us and inadvertently give an Ayin Hora.February 6, 2011 4:31 am at 4:31 am #737355mw13Participant
“”Remember the Yetzer Ha’Ra loves to work overtime”
Yes, and in this case it is the lashon hara about people who live a certain lifestyle.”
Not to mention loshon hara about people who think today’s luxuries are way over the top.
“It is not a rich person’s obligation to support others”
I completely disagree. If Hashem makes a person rich, it so that they should be able to help others. Mind you, they still have a right to live comfortably (vacations included), but they absolutely have a moral obligation to help those less fortunate than them.February 6, 2011 4:37 am at 4:37 am #737356oomisParticipant
bbubbee, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it, and certainly not to the extent that it should horrify or sadden anyone. There are far worse things that are untzniusdig that we unintentionally see. This is not anything worth decrying. Really.February 6, 2011 4:50 am at 4:50 am #737357WolfishMusingsParticipant
A hidur mitzvah is not the same as extravagance.
Hiddur mitzvah is, at best, a d’rabbannan. Charity is min HaTorah. Based on the way this thread is going, one should buy the cheapest esrog and give the rest to tzedaka. I wasn’t being disingenuous at all.
The WolfFebruary 6, 2011 5:13 am at 5:13 am #737358☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Why stop at Pesach hotels?
You might be right, but at least start there!February 6, 2011 5:21 am at 5:21 am #737359bbubbeeParticipant
There was a time not so long ago, in an out of town community, that the Rabbnim did make a takanah about the price of Essrogim. It was supposed to be a starting point for other takonos. Unfortunately, the takanah on essrogim lasted for a few years, but no further takonons were forthcoming.
There was even a Takonoh about Simchos, which seems to have fallen by the wayside.
I am not saying that the wealthy people have to give to the poorer, or that they shouldn’t enjoy the gift that Hashem has given them. It should just be done in a way that does not hurt others – Onas Devarim- is hurtful whether intentional, or unintentional.February 6, 2011 5:32 am at 5:32 am #737360eclipseMember
hi bbubbeeFebruary 6, 2011 8:33 am at 8:33 am #737361
RB, so does that make any sense at all? Yes a makom Kadosh should be beautiful but not when you fall on hard economic times and the people who daven there can’t pay their mortgage, need tzedaka to put food on the table, and the Rebbeim in the Yeshiva are not getting paid. AND if yeshivas are closing down. IS it right to spend $7,000,000 to build a shul? So it should be in the face of other shuls and Rabbonim that their shul is not as grandiose? That too can cause jealousy and a race to be the biggest, grandest, etc.
Where do we stop when we start pointing fingers???February 6, 2011 11:29 am at 11:29 am #737362
I guess we have to disagree.
1. At our age, my wife and I can take a room with a king sized
bed in a hotel. You are judging us as not being tzniusdik
by your standards.
2.I feel bad for your friend in dire economic straits. Does that
require all sellers of goods and services that she cannot
afford have to stop advertising? Does that mean that donations
of amounts larger that she can afford to give should no
longer be announced at appeals because it throws it in
her face? Where does it stop?
There is a growing tendency to , rather than exercising self
restraint, remove temptation by banning the activity for everyone. I see it in the annual ” I don’t
like the idea of Pesach hotels so noone should go “
and in secular areas. I recently heard a radio program dealing with people with an inability to control thier overeating. One indiviual’s solution to his inability to stop eating donuts was to ban any advertising by Dunkin Donuts.February 6, 2011 12:29 pm at 12:29 pm #737363
aries – I dont get it, are you trying to argue with a very choseve Rov?February 6, 2011 12:34 pm at 12:34 pm #737364haifagirlParticipant
Tznius refered to the types of beds that they were showing off. In our homes, we do not raise our children with one king size bed in our rooms.
I was not judging, I was asking if my feelings were correct or am I living back in the 50’s when modesty (in dress & also in our homes) was more popular, even among the not frum world, than it is today.
I can’t afford to go to a hotel, and even if I could I’m not sure I would.
That being said, if I were to go to a hotel, I would get a room with only one bed. There is only one of me. How many beds do I need?February 6, 2011 1:04 pm at 1:04 pm #737365
A rich person has an obligation to give maaser. Anything after that is his or her choice.
I’m tired of people saying “Turn to the rich people!” Guess who we HAVE been turning to? Most communities have the rich people they turn to when the schools need extra money or their shul needs a new roof etc etc etc.
How about the regular people start giving up some of their luxuries? If I were rich, I would look around at the standard of living of even the “poor” people (I’m not talking about the real poor, I’m talking about people who say they can’t pay their bills and still have cleaning help and large cell phone plans and go to the country every summer), and say “Why in the world should I be supporting them? They have excess…
Seriously, people need to get off their high horses on what rich people do with their own money and worry about how well they are spending their own.February 6, 2011 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #737366always hereParticipant
as in: “kick nisht down mine gargle”?February 6, 2011 1:36 pm at 1:36 pm #737367apushatayidParticipant
One persons cleaning help is anothers pesach getway. Everyone should mind their own business when it comes to other peoples money.February 6, 2011 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #737368
sjs – Both, rich and poor should go beyonf their limits, but it will be much more constructive if the rich would.February 6, 2011 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #737369
Last time I checked, we do no believe in rabbinic infallibility.
Yes, you can argue on spending $7 million on a shul. Aries was questioning the concept, she was questioning the amount spent.February 6, 2011 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #737370
less – If this is what the rov wanted, then who are we to argue??? I think daas torah is greater than anyone else.February 6, 2011 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #737371
real-brisker, people are constantly harping on the rich. Most rich people I know give a TON of money to tzedaka. They give more in a month than many people make in a year. Why shouldn’t they enjoy themselves at a fancy hotel for Pesach?
As to the shul, I’ve seen the shul and can’t quite imagine what cost $7 million to build. But I wonder why a $2 million shul wouldn’t have done for him. Interstingly enough, Rabbi Schlesinger did tell all his congregants that no house in the area was worth more than a certain amount (I think $500,000 maybe?) to cap the housing increases.February 6, 2011 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #737372
sjs – I didnt say rich cant enjoy a hotel stay. Who are to argue on what a rov says?February 6, 2011 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #737373
RB, are you yelling at me???? And no I am not arguing with someone I don’t know and not having a conversation with silly boy! I am having a conversation with YOU. It is not MY BUSINESS what this particular Rav’s shita is, no matter how chashuv or not chashuv he claims to be. It is NOT MY BUSINESS how much money he forced his congregants to spend on HIS shul to show off to his neighborhood. It is also NOT MY BUSINESS nor ANYONE else’s HOW MUCH ANYONE spends on PESACH HOTELS, or VACATIONS, or whether they advertise KING beds or buy KING beds.
MY point is that the argument of what people should do with their money can turn in any which direction if you choose to look into every vinkel and corner. Do you get my point? If you want to talk about the wealthy spending money on Pesach hotels while yeshivas close and Rebbeim are not getting paid how can you justify spending $7,000,000 on building a shul? That TOO would pay a lot of tuitions and Rebbeim in that particular neighborhood.February 6, 2011 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #737374
RB, in addition maybe he had a point by saying it is a bizayon but then maybe his point was to his own kehila about not trying to top each other.February 6, 2011 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #737375
aries – No I am not yelling at you – Im just pointing out that you cannot ask questions on daas torah. What do you mean that he had a point only to his kehila?February 7, 2011 2:46 am at 2:46 am #737376
Who am I to ask a question on daas Torah? Especially when he isn’t MY daas Torah?
Are we now a religion that believes in perfect leaders? Or is no one here allowed to ask questions on Rabbi Tendler? He is certainly daas Torah.
Now, I don’t know his exact reasoning for agreeing to a $7 million shul. But why can’t it be discussed? I don’t think any Rav is above questioning. It’s not disrespectful to ask “why.” Especially because I did discuss something positive he did in the neighborhood.February 7, 2011 3:19 am at 3:19 am #737377
Daas Torah is a relatively recent concept. No Rabbi is infallible and beyond questioning, particularly a pulpit Rabbi most people have never heard of who allowed $7 million to be spent on a shul.February 7, 2011 3:27 am at 3:27 am #737378
Firstly when HE speaks he speaks to HIS kehilah not to me because I never heard him. You may not have heard of MY Rav and may not know of any of the amazing things that he does. So YES when YOUR RAV speaks to his Kehilah he might have been trying to make a point to them. What does that have to do with me. And if you would take the issue to another Rav without saying who YOUR Rav is and where you live, they might not agree that it is appropriate to spend so much money on a shul when a yeshiva just closed in the community and children are left out on the street.
RB, YOU are pushing me to argue with you while I said to you it is NOT my BUSINESS nor do I care if YOUR RAV chose to do this. MY POINT is that NO ONE has the right to question others or be upset on how others spend their money and point their fingers, because there are a lot of fingers that can be pointed in many directions.
And SJS has a good point as well. Just this past year there were two horrendous stories that came out of the Monsey community in regard to the misuse of in the title “Rabbi”. A Tzaddik is a tzaddik whether he has the title Rabbi or not. Not all Tzadikim are Rabbonim and not ALL Rabbonim are Tzaddikim, unfortunately. We all wish we could say otherwise. And I am not going to say more on the subject because I am not going to turn this into a Rabbi bashing, absolutely, positively not!!!!!
But don’t throw it out there that because a person is a Rabbi, that makes him a tzaddik and therefore no one can argue their logic or their attitude. If he is your RAV and you trust in him and believe in him then to you he is a tzaddik and that is fine with me. As for me I don’t know him so I can’t and won’t comment on him. It is not my place. I just used the concept of spending so much on “glamorizing” the shuls when so many children are being thrown out of yeshiva for lack of funding just as bbubbee said how could people spend so much money on Pesach hotels in exotic places when others need their money more. Everyone should just mind their own business and let Hashem take care of it.
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