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I understand that if you live in a highly Democratic area like NYC a frum person may feel the need to run as a Democrat if he or she wants a chance to win. But how could they? As much as one may be idealistic, it has become historically clear that whoever doesn’t toe the party line won’t get help to win in the first place or re-election. But how could anyone align with a party that is pro-abortion and increasingly anti-Israel among other things. I was going to consider voting for a frum person in the upcoming primary, but on second thought, probably will not.
“how could anyone align with a party that is pro-abortion and increasingly anti-Israel among other things”
Well the Democratic Party voters rejected all the anti-Israel candidates for President this year and decided to nominate Joe Biden, a man with a decades long record of support for Israel who also has Jewish grandchildren.
We do have a problem, though. Representatives Josh Gottheimer, Grace Meng, Gregory Meeks, and Eliot Engel are all facing primary challenges from the anti-Israel nutty far left. They are as strongly supportive of Israel as any politician of any party anywhere and deserve our support. Please send contributions, or help with the campaign if you can. I have been making phone calls for Engel. And if you live in any of those districts or know of anyone who does (all those districts have important orthodox communities) vote the right way and get your friends to do so as well.
Regarding the other issue mentioned, the pro-abortion position isn’t consistent with Judaism, but the strict anti-abortion position promoted by most Republicans these days is even more inconsistent. There are occasions when abortions are needed and many Republicans would prohibit those.
“I was going to consider voting for a frum person in the upcoming primary, but on second thought, probably will not.”
Why not? I voted for Joe Lieberman for both US Senate and Vice President. Before the shutdown I would see him in shul from time to time.
The Jewish askan establishment is still stuck in the FDR era. Sad.
I should have mentioned that Jerry Nadler also has a primary opponent from the nutty far left. Please support him as well. The first time I ever saw him in person was at Lincoln Square Synagogue. He was davening Mincha from the Amud on the occasion of a yahretzeit and he did a great job. Rabbi Robinson acknowledged Congressman Nadler as a member of the shul.
Look up abortion to save the mother in the Mishna at the end of the 7th Perek of Aholos.
What do you mean by abortions that are needed? If you mean mamzerim, maybe I am wrong but such abortions are just as immoral. If you mean when the mothers life is in danger, I dont think there are that kind of fundamentalists in the public sphere.
That being said, because of the horrible liberal pro abortion, many Republicans made a knee jerk reaction to consider fetuses as if they are alive already לכל דבר. (Georgia is giving its Child Tax Credit to unborn children just to make a statement against abortion). This isn’t our view either.
Those in the 17th district (rockland and nort Westchester) should know that there is a very good moderate democrat running David Carlucci against very left wing people (based on the loterature i received from them in the mail they think all tgat people care about in my district are social liberal issues such as abortuon gun contril etc. They do not know the moderate suburb people that live here)
I am always surprised at how little frum people know about abortion in halacha and haskafa. Everyone kind of gravitates towards the right-wing Xtian approach of widespread banning and arresting people for murder. If there’s one thing I don’t like about Ben Shapiro and his media network, it’s their unwavering dogmatic positions on abortion.
In reality, it’s actually a very complex issue and not as clear-cut as the media likes to portray it. I’m certainly not qualified to speak on it, but I suggest you read up on some teshuvos and speak to your Rov. Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L, for one, stated that it’s similar to murder, but we should not oppose government efforts to legalize it because it needs to be available for women that truly need it.
For context, last year, there were two extreme abortion measures up for review, one in New York and one in Alabama. Both got a ton of press. The NY law referred to it as a choice and would have allowed women to choose even during labor. The AL law referred to it as murder and it would be considered a crime even when the fetus was little more than a bundle of cells. The Agudah protested both and used almost identical language in each.
@CharlieHall, I hope fat Jerry loses big time, he is a disgrace and never supported Boro Park, way too busy kotowing to the far left.
Worse comes to worse if he loses he can get a huge from Avi Weiss1. Of course whoever doesn’t toe the party line won’t get help to win in the first place or re-election. Anyone frum running in a Dem primary must try to win without that help. If you are referring to Chaim Deutsch, he is running in a primary which already has a big fight between the communist-sympathizing incumbent and at least one challenger from her left! Deutsch’s hope is that they will concentrate on fighting each other, split the leftist vote between them, and he will be able to sneak in past them.
If he is successful, he will then have to decide what to do in order to get reelected in two years. He can either make nice with the Dems by toeing their line on most things while deviating on those issues that are most important to us, or he can just defy them and keep fighting them off every two years, using the power of an incumbent to the fullest.
2. On abortion, there is NOBODY in politics who proposes banning abortion even when the mother’s life is in danger. EVERYONE AGREES that even if abortion is completely banned, necessity would remain a defense, which means killing a baby in order to save its mother would remain legal just as it is after the baby is born.
And despite what self-serving leftists like Charliehall will tell you, that is the halachic position, at least according to the Rambam and R Moshe Feinstein. An unborn child IS a human being and killing it is murder in every sense of the word. Not “almost” murder, but actual murder. It has EXACTLY THE SAME DIN as killing a nochri.
I know this is unpopular among those whose yiddishkeit is subordinate to their liberal values, but it is the truth. Killing a nochri and aborting an unborn baby have the exact same din: A ben noach who does it is executed, whlie a yisroel who does it is not. That doesn’t mean he isn’t a murderer, just that HKBH doesn’t want him executed for it.
When the baby endangers the mother’s life it is a rodef, and she is entitled to defend herself by killing it, just as she could kill a burglar who breaks into her home and she fears will kill her. That is the Torah view and that is the most extreme right-wing Right-to-Life view, so frum Jews should be wholeheartedly on that side.
The only real difference between the two sides is that they start personhood at conception and we do at 40 days. But that is irrelevant in almost all cases, because abortions are almost never performed before 40 days. Usually at 40 days the woman doesn’t know she’s pregnant, or has only recently found out and hasn’t yet decided what to do.
But putting somebody to death without a witness or proper evidence is ok.
@ruevain
Ouch! Usually I cant stand whataboutisms but tahts a good one.
But putting somebody to death without a witness or proper evidence is ok.
What is this a reference to? Abortion? That’s outright murder, so what witness or evidence would you need? Nobody is accusing the baby of anything. Neither the USA nor any state gives any criminal punishment without due process. So what do you mean?
@ Milhousr
What I think Ruevain is trying to do, is saying that it’s dichotomous to be anti-abortion but pro-police brutality against alleged murderers.
” there is NOBODY in politics who proposes banning abortion even when the mother’s life is in danger”
That is a false statement. There are a number of countries where that is in fact the law. Malta, El Salvador, Nicaragua, and the Philippines have such a law, as do three states in Mexico where it is not a matter for national legislation. It is the official position of the Catholic Church. US politicians are so stupid as to openly promote that here, but that is the goal of most of the “pro-life” movement. The Catholic Church would also ban in vitro fertilization.
Get out of denial.
“That’s outright murder”
No it isn’t. If it were, it would be treated as such in halachah.
“What do you mean by abortions that are needed? ”
Abortions as sometimes needed to save the life of the mother. For example, ectopic pregnancies are more common than people realize — according to some epidemiologic studies, one in a thousand conceptions. The emergency department at my health system performs them on a regular basis. The OB department performs even late term abortions when the fetus is unlikely to survive or there are there are other reasons that the mother’s life is in danger.
Dear Milhouse,
Not sure what you are talking about. There is a lot of debate in the democratic party. The Republicans shunned Jeff Flake for sticking to the party line and not embracing the President. Mitt Romney is next.“Well the Democratic Party voters rejected all the anti-Israel candidates for President this year and decided to nominate Joe Biden, a man with a decades long record of support for Israel ”
By saying the first thing he will do is re-instate payments for “pay to slay” programs to the terrorist.
He doesn’t sound supportive.
Charliehall, there is nobody in the USA who would abolish the necessity defense for abortion. I also don’t believe your claim that there is any other country where this is true, but even if it’s true it’s irrelevant to us. It is NOT the goal of the pro-life movement, ANY of it, and it is NOT the Catholic Church’s position. It’s because you lie about that that I don’t believe you about other countries. Harotze leshaker yarchik eduso.
The Catholic Church allows whatever is necessary to to be done, so long as the goal to save the mother’s life, not to kill the baby. If the baby dies as an unavoidable result of that legitimate life-saving, that is unfortunate but not a sin. And that is EXACTLY the Torah’s position.
Yes, we differ on IVF, and it would be unfortunate if IVF were to be banned, but it would be a very small and affordable price to pay for the great good of banning abortion and ending the current Holocaust.
“That’s outright murder”
No it isn’t. If it were, it would be treated as such in halachah.
It is. Halacha treats killing an unborn baby EXACTLY THE SAME WAY it treats killing a nochri. And I’d bet anything that you will NOT accept the proposition that killing a nochri is not outright murder! You’re right not to accept it because it’s obviously false; but you have to accept the corollary, that killing an unborn baby is also outright murder. There is nothing you can point to to distinguish them.
“that is EXACTLY the Torah’s position”
No it isn’t, and you know that.
“Halacha treats killing an unborn baby EXACTLY THE SAME WAY it treats killing a nochri.”
And that is a lie, too.
“By saying the first thing he will do is re-instate payments for “pay to slay” programs to the terrorist.”
Also a lie.
“It is NOT the goal of the pro-life movement, ANY of it, and it is NOT the Catholic Church’s position.”
Which Catholic Seminary did you attend? I just gave you the names of four overwhelmingly Catholic countries where the Church insisted on total bans on abortion and forced the politicians to enforce them. Interestingly, two of them have left wing governments today but they are just as supportive of the abortion ban. And in the US the pro-life movement wants to effectively eliminate all abortions as well. They claim that they want to allow abortions to save a mother’s life but their standards are so much more draconian than ours that it would result in Jewish women dying. And while the Pope has not taken an official position regarding methotrexate to treat ectopic pregnancies, Catholic ethicists (mostly celibate males) largely agree that it is forbidden as are all other abortions.
You don’t understand Judaism and you don’t understand Catholicism.
“Halacha treats killing an unborn baby EXACTLY THE SAME WAY it treats killing a nochri.”
And that is a lie, too.
It is the exact truth and you know it. Show us one difference between them.
And the Catholic position on abortion to save the mother’s life can easily be found in any work on Catholic ethics. Any action whose purpose is to kill the baby is forbidden. Any action whose purpose is to save the mother’s life is permitted, even if the consequence is that the baby unfortunately dies. Which is exactly in accord with what the halacha says.
But EVEN IF the result of banning abortion would be that some Jewish women would die who could have been saved, it would still be worth it because those few deaths would be far outweighed by all the Jewish lives that would be saved.
Dear Milhouse,
1)Killing a nochri is punishable just like killing without witnesses. Abortion is never mentioned as given to Yidden to mete out justice.
2)What about saving the mother’s health? Or an unknown risk? Does the Mother’s abilities and opinion play a role?
3)”Those few deaths” Living Yidden versus un-born Nochrim. Really?!? Even if you meant something else, אין .דוחין נפש םפני נפש
4)Even if you are correct on the whole topic, why does it matter if I am running as a Republican or Democrat? Do you consider this the central cause of Judaism?
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