September 19, 2011 12:21 am at 12:21 am #599443
What would you do?
A very busy frum store in the Castskills was charging my card during checkout, and the clerk thought he charged me $1704 instead of $17.04. Instead of voiding the transaction (which he should have done), he gave me a refund transaction of $1704. A month later when I am looking through my statements I realize the original charge never went through, so I only received the credit without the debit.
Do I have to go seek out the store owner (which is a difficult task since the store is now closed for the winter), or should I wait for him to contact me to return the money?
I don’t know if he will ever realize since it is a big store and this is just a drop in the bucket for him.September 19, 2011 12:33 am at 12:33 am #812533tickle toe eitusMember
You are obligated to return the money.September 19, 2011 12:35 am at 12:35 am #812534gematriaMember
sounds like a classic case of hashovas aveidah so yeah i guess you gotta find him.September 19, 2011 12:40 am at 12:40 am #812535justsimchaMember
A)1704 is not a drop in the bucket for anyone
B)how about u say the name of the store , or at least initials and im sure ppl on the cr will help u find him very quickly.
tachlis- lhalacha its a yid , therefore gneiva.
Whats the name of the store?September 19, 2011 12:43 am at 12:43 am #812536deiyezoogerMember
You have to return it ASAP
???? ????? ????September 19, 2011 12:45 am at 12:45 am #812537Sam2Participant
Justsimcha: It’s Assur to steal from a Goy too.September 19, 2011 12:52 am at 12:52 am #812538akupermaParticipant
Be Dan le-Kaf Zechus.
Contact them immediately and find out if they know about it. They may have been hacked (meaning someone else pretending to be them put the charge on and diverted the money to their own account).
It’s also possible there was an inputting error.
And of course one should notify the credit card company immediately since you waive rights by not doing so.September 19, 2011 1:01 am at 1:01 am #812539justsimchaMember
this is not stealing. It is a classical case of taus – mistake. In a case of taus akum , i.e. a goy making a mistake , the halacha is you are not stealing. many rabbonim say to return altz kiddush hashem. By a yid however it is stealing.September 19, 2011 1:06 am at 1:06 am #812540YatzmichMember
Wow! A really good shayloh. I wonder what a rov would say? You really need to find the right Rov for such a shvera shayloh.September 19, 2011 1:19 am at 1:19 am #812541metrodriverMember
KollelGuy_Dot_Com; First of all. Any business entity that doesn’t know the difference between a negative and positive balance of $1700.00 can’t be big. They’d “Lose Their Pants” in one day. There is a tiny feeling sneaking in the corner of my brain, that you are “Not too Eager” to return the unjustified credit to your account. (Sorry. In spite of it being Ellul.). Otherwise, it wouldn’t be the most difficult task in the world to find the owners. Assuming, you are not as absent-minded as the person in the Sugiya of “Tesha Chanoyos”. The 9 (Out of Ten) stores in a shopping mall, discussed in Masechet Pesachim.September 19, 2011 1:33 am at 1:33 am #812542Sam2Participant
Justsimcha: I believe it’s stil stealing, even if you say that Ta’us by Akkum is muttar, in this case the Ta’us would not have been committed by the person whose money it is. He have his worker permission to sell stuff, not give away $1700. I think it would probably still be stealing in this case. I could be wrong though. Choshen Mishpat is very far from my area of expertise (assuming I actually have one).September 19, 2011 1:42 am at 1:42 am #812544Smick.Member
It simple, Return it!! It’s not yours!!! It’s facsinating how money can be so blinding to the emes! This is a classical example… The yetzer hara can come up with the most original fantastic logical reasons as to why it’s muttar for you to keep the cash, however you know yourself what the right thing is to do!!! And do you know what if it was destined for you to have that specific amount of extra money, it is sure to come your way!! I hope you make the right decision, since you will benefit from it!!September 19, 2011 1:59 am at 1:59 am #812545metrodriverMember
justsimcha; (In response to sam 2) On that subject, I have a little rhyme. (Poem, if you will.) But it only works with the Hungarian/Galitzianer (Chashash () of Killayim.) accent of Yiddish.
“Tooes Akum Mitter”
“Az Men Chapt iz Bitter”September 19, 2011 2:00 am at 2:00 am #812546deiyezoogerMember
“And people wonder why some people are against kollel.”
That comment is uncalled for, instead of pocketing the money the OP wants to do what the halachah is, why are you bashing thousands of G-d fearing jews?September 19, 2011 3:30 am at 3:30 am #812548YW Moderator-20Moderator
I would contact the store owner on that same day.September 19, 2011 4:42 am at 4:42 am #812549commonsenseParticipant
Yatzmich, I hope you’re joking. It shouldn’t need a Rov to tell you to return money to that is not yours if you can. Basic menchlichkeit should tell you that.
Mod-20, give him the benefit of the doubt, I think he states he did not realize the problem until he got his statement which was after the summer.September 19, 2011 5:20 am at 5:20 am #812550NechomahParticipant
Metrodriver and everybody else, I think a mistake has been made. The original purchase was for $17.04, but he was mistakenly charged $1704. They gave him a refund for the $1704, but never charged the $17.04. It is totally understandable that a store could miss the charge for the small amount, and the person might think to himself that it is such a small amount and of little consequence that he does not have to try to return it, but, as everybody said, he should give it back as soon as he can find them. Best idea is before R”H to put it in a bag with the name of the store on it, put it to the side and be mekabel to get it back to them. Of course, if you can find them before R”H, it would be terrific, but in the event that you can’t, you don’t want the issue of gezel over your head on Yom HaDin.September 19, 2011 9:04 am at 9:04 am #812551welldressed007Participant
no shaila return the moneySeptember 19, 2011 10:03 am at 10:03 am #812552600 Kilo BearMember
Contact the credit card company as you would for an incorrect debit. They’ll tell you what to do or they will reverse it.September 19, 2011 1:55 pm at 1:55 pm #812553yovelMember
It’s an befurushe (explicitly written) halochoh that if a goy gives you too much change (for example), you must return it, because he might be testing you (unless you make it very clear that you are relying totally on his calculation and you are not counting it yourself).
This is written clearly in the Rambam Hilchos Gezeilah 11:5.September 19, 2011 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #812554apushatayidParticipant
The credit card company knows exactly who to refund the money to. Call them. Tell them what you told us.September 20, 2011 3:12 am at 3:12 am #812555
Thank you everyone for your opinions. It seems that the CR paskens that I must return the money. Of course I had never doubted returning the money, but was waiting 30 days to see if the charge would be reversed. It now seems that the store has not realized the error, so it is now my responsibility to return the money.
Does anyone know how to contact Mountain Food?September 20, 2011 3:24 am at 3:24 am #812556shmoelMember
I think Mountain Food in the Catskills is owned by Moisha’s and the Kollel Store.September 20, 2011 3:38 am at 3:38 am #812557
Are you sure about that? How would I verify that? Can I just call up KRM and ask them?September 20, 2011 3:50 am at 3:50 am #812558shmoelMember
Yes, call and ask if they own it or how to get in touch.September 20, 2011 3:53 am at 3:53 am #812559nananaMember
It is owned by Lazer Duvid Itzkowitz who is the manager of the above mentioned stores.September 20, 2011 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #812560mommamia22Participant
Kol hakavod that you’re looking to return it. You’re going to get e tremendous schar for this mitzvah. The more difficult to find the owner, the more enticing it is to want to keep the money, the greater your schar will be. In a way, you’re fortunate that this happened, and that you got the chance to do this mitzvah right before the yamim nor aim. H’ gave you a chance to earn great schar!September 20, 2011 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #812561mewhoParticipant
call 718-436-7701 and ask for LDSeptember 20, 2011 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #812562am yisrael chaiParticipant
?? ???? ??????!September 20, 2011 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #812563littleappleMember
BTW Are you sure that is not the mountain branch of Mountain Fruit Supermarket on Ave. M?September 25, 2011 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #812564
Moshe Neiman told me where to send the money. Thanks everyone for your input – I appreciate everyone in helping me bring this to a successful end.
A gut yor.September 25, 2011 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #812565am yisrael chaiParticipant
You’re a credit (!) to the rest of us….!September 26, 2011 12:23 pm at 12:23 pm #812566gefenParticipant
kollelguy – just curious – did you think anyone here would actually tell you to just “take the money and run, dude”? or were you just testing everyone?
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