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I feel that there is a small group of boys who if circumstances allowed they would have stayed in Yeshiva, but for financial reasons they have to make a living (not to be confused with boys who don’t fit in the Yeshiva mold)
Where do they fall in shidduchim they want to date serious girls who don’t think that it’s the coolest thing that the boy is working, these boys typically are extremely makpid on their K’vius I’tim, and they typically have a harder time dating.
Don’t *all* people of a lesser financial situation have a “harder time dating” than those of wealthier status? Whether either one was hoping to learn full time or work full time.
I sense based on your post that English is not your native language, so may I suggest you reread your posts before hitting the send button. There are girls looking for learners/earners, but it seems that at the very least the earners are making a decent living. Girls who go to Israel for seminary typically are looking for long-term learners but as time goes on, some of them change their outlook and what they want. There are plenty of girls out there looking to get married, and many are educated and making a good living, but I think you would make a better impression if you sounded more educated.
Sorry, they don’t exist. It doesn’t cost any money to be in yeshiva when you are single. If you have no money, you canree tuition and dorm, and a small tutoring or leining type job can cover your shoes, shirts, and beer.
Popa, what if his parents are l”a unable to work, and he needs to chip in to help support the family? (My first thought was like you, though.)
Not everyone is cut out for 3 full sedarim a day. The OP could just as easily have asked about the bachur who has a chavrusah for 90 minutes after davening, goes to work, and has a chavrusah again later in the evening but is not officially enrolled in any yeshiva.
A smart girl (or her mother or father or whoever it is that vettes shidduch suggestions for her) should at least consider such a boy and not dismiss him out of hand.
Apushata, I think you’re not understanding the OP. Yes, as you point out, not everyone is cut out for learning 3 full sedarim a day. And lots of people would appreciate the honesty of this type of young man in finding himself some sort of productive occupation, instead of battelling. But this guy is NOT the one the OP is talking about.
I think the OP wants us to consider the guy who absolutely could learn 3 full sedarim Plus, but for financial reasons has a job.
These are 2 very different guys, and would probably feel comfortable and compatible with different types of girls from one another.
DY, I was thinking along your lines as I actually know someone in a similar situation.
If the bachur is working to help support the family, so will he continue to do so once he is married? I would think this type of person would be very rare. In this day and age, there are so many government programs that the parents would not have to require a child to work to help out financially. And if his income is so necessary, how can afford to marry and start his own home?
I think the OP is asking about a boy who will need to immediately be working after marriage yet very strongly wished he didn’t have to and could have instead had the opportunity to remain learning after marriage but cannot do so for financial reasons.
I think the OP is asking about a boy who will need to immediately be working after marriage
I don’t.
Well, perhaps you’re correct or perhaps I’m correct.
Either way if that is his question or otherwise, it is a good question worth exploring an answer for. That answer should at least provide direction to the OP whether or not he meant to ask that. And it should provide direction to others who have that same question.
There are plenty of bochurim that could get by on spending money for their basic expenses. But what about the cost of dating, engagement jewelry, and FLOP for the wedding? If the parents can’t support him, then the bochur needs to work to save up some money.
Generally, if a boy very strongly wished he would be able to learn after marriage, he would only go out with someone who has a good job or whose parents could provide support.
FiF, these things could be provided through gemachs and other tzedakah money.
I know many many girls who are looking for boys who love learning but realize that they need to be working for practical reasons. How can we set up these shidduchim?
DY: I don’t think your answer is really a solution. So you’re saying that the best answer for hishtadlus is to do nothing and just collect tzedakah? At that rate of thinking, our community would be bankrupt before long. What if the bochur has a real degree and a real job and started working because he needs the money to get married?
sem613: Are these girls in the 19-23 range, or older girls who are only considering these boys because they haven’t found success with the full time learners? Meaning, are they marrying the working ex-yeshiva boy lchatchila?
I’m not trying to offer a solution. I’m telling you the reality. Maybe my wording was imprecise. Not only could these things be provided through tzedakah, it happens that way.
And if we have the same understanding of what it means to strongly desire to learn, those bochurim don’t have degrees.
These are 19-24 year old girls, mostly girls who are coming from YU families not willing to offer support for a learner but have moved to a place hashkaficly where they want someone with the yeshivish values
Generally, if a boy very strongly wished he would be able to learn after marriage, he would only go out with someone who has a good job or whose parents could provide support.
And what does a girl who very strongly wants to establish a learning/kollel home, but doesn’t have the wherewithal to support it, do?
You tell me, what does she do?
She works, I presume is your implied response, but her income doesn’t suffice to cover family necessities.
No, that was assumed in your phrase that she “doesn’t have the wherewithal”.
Okay, I give up in trying to guess your implied response. Pull out your surprise.
Why do you assume that I have an answer?
I initially understood your comment to mean the answer should be obvious, but now I see you meant to say there’s no easy answer. My apologies.
There are bochurim with a strong desire to learn, that get degrees and go to work. They need the money. If they didn’t go to work or get their degrees, they would be learning in yeshiva 3 sedarim a day. That is the type of guy I’m talking about.
Lior, no problem.
FiF, I am saying that if he had a strong desire to learn full time, he could do it, because nowadays, a bochur can get by without working for money.
Its amazing that its come to the point where working is considered less desireable than taking from Tzdekah and a Gemach
I am well aware of how the community thinks, I know a relative who turned down a very nice bocher who was the son of a big doctor because he didnt want to promise that he would learn past 10 years in favor of a bachor who promised to learn for the rest of his life who came from a kollel family
(The richer bocher was not a snob or anything and I was told he was a very good catch from a very good family, just that he didnt want to promise (He didnt say he woulndt, just that he couldnt predict the future and didnt want to make a promise if things would change)
Generally, if a boy very strongly wished he would be able to learn after marriage, he would only go out with someone who has a good job or whose parents could provide support.
Or he would push off getting married. Ha Lan Ha Lehu.
And what does a girl who very strongly wants to establish a learning/kollel home, but doesn’t have the wherewithal to support it, do?
She becomes a shidduch crisis statistic.
Its amazing that its come to the point where working is considered less desireable than taking from Tzdekah and a Gemach
(See PBA, managed to invoke Godwin!!)
Its amazing that its come to the point where working is considered less desireable than taking from Tzdekah and a Gemach
You mean like shevet levi always did?
It’s amazing that you’ve been posting here for years and still are amazed that we think it is appropriate to be supported by the community so that you can learn, and that it is appropriate for the community to support you.
Or he would push off getting married. Ha Lan Ha Lehu.
So you would advocate for a change in the “system” which would have boys starting to go out at 28?
She becomes a shidduch crisis statistic.
Yes, I think it behooves any young lady to be realistic, and not limit herself to go out with boys who would not want to go out with her.
I’m not sure I understand the point in the OP that the “serious girls” are looking for a full-time learner. Given that the vast majority of frum yidden work, either at the time of marriage or at some point thereafter, what are the girls thinking? Ideally we’d all be learning 24/7, but that’s unfortunately not how the world works. It can’t be that only men realize this.
DY
Many members of my family are learners. In fact more are learners than earners. It is not a fraction, that story was an extreme case. I know what goes on, Its discussed at family events.
None of them have strayed from Kollel. everyone started as a learner when they got married and stayed that way
I am well aware of how the community thinks, I know a relative who turned down a very nice bocher who was the son of a big doctor because he didnt want to promise that he would learn past 10 years in favor of a bachor who promised to learn for the rest of his life who came from a kollel family
(The richer bocher was not a snob or anything and I was told he was a very good catch from a very good family, just that he didnt want to promise (He didnt say he woulndt, just that he couldnt predict the future and didnt want to make a promise if things would change)
(I suppose that post was in response to popa but the order got switched.)
It’s amazing how you claim to know how the community thinks, yet cite a story which represents a tiny fraction of people.
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Rebbe Yid, I think the OP means boys who will be in kollel a whole day for the first years of marriage, not that they will stay in kollel forever.
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For some perspective on the idea of a serious learner not getting a degree or a job:
__An Answer to Reb Y in Verse__
Men
Don’t go to Sem
So you would advocate for a change in the “system” which would have boys starting to go out at 28?
Talui in the Rishonim there in Keddushin 29B. It’s really not for me to say what should be done in a situation where the bochur’s own family can not support, as Chazal and the Rishonim have already discussed it. I do feel the need to point it out as an option that at least some (and possibly Amoraim) endorsed.
Yes, I think it behooves any young lady to be realistic, and not limit herself to go out with boys who would not want to go out with her.
As famous shaddchanim are known to say, the number one thing that a girl needs to get married in this society is lots of money. That’s just the way it is.
So if you and I agree that money is causing the shidduch crisis, and you suggest (and I agree) getting rid of money will only make things worse, how would you suggest breaking out of this catch-22?
That depends entirely on how you define “the shidduch crisis”.
That depends entirely on how you define “the shidduch crisis”.
The sheer number of 22+ year old girls waiting (either at home or in an apartment with roommates) for the phone to ring.
Then for the most part, we’re not in agreement.
The sheer number of 22+ year old girls waiting (either at home or in an apartment with roommates) for the phone to ring.
Do you mean the excess of girls waiting over boys?
I assumed he did, because he didn’t talk about older singles in general.
No, no. I’m saying, if there are 5000 single girls and 3000 single boys, the excess–the 2000–is the crisis?
Or are all 8000 the crisis?
Or all all 5000 girls the crisis, but not the boys?
That gives me an idea.
Bump
yeah, I feel the same way. I’m a young girl in shidduchim, and looking for a boy who learns and works. Everyone says the same thing, that if a boy is working, he’s modern and not the typical good boy. I’m a good girl and definitely not looking for a modern boy, but looking for someone who is koveya itim and works…… does such a thing exist?
could a boy work and still be a “good boy?”
does such a thing exist?
Yes, but he’s busy now.
I think this is an exceedingly small group (boys supporting their family), and there is usually a story behind them. However, I think that this theoretical group contains the most eligible boys for marriage, being as they have a mature outlook of life and dealing with its challenges. Your average working boy doesn’t fit into those category, however. I’m not saying anything against them; this thread just isn’t discussing them. Any boy that fits into the category that we are discussing should be more than happy to go back to learning, if the girl had a decent job and he doesn’t have to support his family.
#flatbusher Disjointed sentences, no flow whatsoever. I’d say you’re not exactly Mark Twain yourself, so why be ride about other people’s writing skills?
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