March 25, 2013 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #941324The Kanoi Next DoorMember
“Its one thing to complain , Its quite another to call them goyim , dogs and other names.”
Oh, come on. For every time the Bennet/Lapid was insulted, the Chareidim were called parasites, primitives, etc. The nature of a stormy debate is that it attracts hotheads, and hotheads tend to hurl insults. This is by no means a phenomena limited to the Chareidi world.March 26, 2013 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #941325
1. The contention that the IDF “persecutes” Orthodox Jews is nonsense. In fact the majority of the candidates in officer training courses are Orthodox. Army kitchens are kosher and it is assur to bring chametz on bases during Pesach – and a son of one of my friends said that his base is even kitniot-free.
2. It is a mitzva d’Oraita to serve in the IDF (Ramban Sefer HaMitzvot Mitzvot that Rambam “forgot” Mitzva 4, Rambam Hilchot Shabbat 2:23 and Hilchot Melachim 7:4, Mishpat Cohen 143, Tzitz Eliezer 13:100)
3. All those who meavzeh rabbanim and quote sharp statements of gedolim should learn Baba Metzia 83b regarding what a gadol may say and what an am ha’aretz may say.March 28, 2013 6:28 am at 6:28 am #941327HealthParticipant
Avi K -“2. It is a mitzva d’Oraita to serve in the IDF”
The Gedolim said it’s Ossur to go to the IDF. (I explained this a few times here in the CR.) I guess they don’t learn the Rambam like you do!March 28, 2013 8:44 am at 8:44 am #941328NaftushMember
Akuperma refers to a “law prohibiting Jews from working unless they complete army service.” There’s no such thing. Anyone with a legal exemption (on medical grounds, for being an Arab, for being a frum woman on her say-so, for being deemed unsuitable for service, etc.) is free to work, learn, and anything else. In contrast, those who declare “torato umanuto” are given deferments, making them de jure soldiers on something like extended leave. This and only this is why they cannot work.March 28, 2013 11:39 am at 11:39 am #941329zahavasdadParticipant
It seems there are plans to move the Charedi Populations to Vienna, because of the generous benefits there.
I dont know who are the gevrim who are supporting the Yeshivas, But I am sure at least some of them are either Dati Leumi or even Chilonim (Many non-relgious actually do support religious institutions). I doubt these supporters will be too happy if the charedim move to Vienna of all places (Its not so easier to emmigrate to US for Israeli non-Us citizens and benefits are likely to be cut here as well due to political climate)
Probably many charedim will be forced to sell their apartments in a fire sale in order to be able to afford to move to Vienna further improverting them (They will need the money to pay for plane tickets and real estate in Vienna) I doubt many geverim will pay the millions required for this mass exodus along with the money required to build the yeshiva directly.March 28, 2013 12:10 pm at 12:10 pm #941330chez11Member
So the net result, either way, is that frum yidden are legally prohibited to work. Either because they are exempted with torato umanato or because they weren’t exempted altogether.March 28, 2013 2:45 pm at 2:45 pm #941331NaftushMember
chez11, the sweeping statement “frum yidden are legally prohibited to work” isn’t true. Anyone who’s been drafted and deferred cannot work, frum or not. This was my status for six months in 1982. I was allowed while deferred to finish teaching a course, but only by special permission and only because the course was for demobilized soldiers. Besides, your statement implies that only full-time learners are frum yidden and vice versa; I hope you didn’t mean it that way.March 28, 2013 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #941332March 29, 2013 2:33 am at 2:33 am #941333HealthParticipant
Avi K -“Health, on the contrary, the gedolim say that it is a mitzva with the exception of those who are learning full-time (and not just registered). Rambam is very clear as is Ramban”
Sorry the Gedolim from the previous generation till ours, from the Chazon Ish till R’ Shteinman, hold it’s Ossur to go to the IDF whether learning full time or not. Obviously they don’t learn these Rishonim like you. It fails to amaze me that everytime we have a disagreement you seem to say your way is right and e/o has to listen to your way. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps there are Gedolim who don’t see it the same way as your Gedolim and they aren’t wrong?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.