May 13, 2020 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #1860260
Regarding the article slamming people davening outside
There were comments that show what a lack of understanding there was to this situation
“To go to stores where there are 10 or people shopping for ice creams and dips is perfectly fine. But to daven with a minyan is not. Where are our priorities? Are you for real? And why is it anyone’s business where someone davens? If someone has nine sons and they daven with their father in the house, is that also a “rogue minyan”? Give me a break.“
The people that Daven in the Young Israel are from Century Village a retirement community in Deerfield Beach not some place with young people with children
Just a side point upminster j is where the rav lives so I’m surprised they did it there if it wasn’t by accidentMay 13, 2020 1:14 pm at 1:14 pm #1860280
Read the letter, they were not thrown out of the shul. However ,for going against the Rav’s psak the participants were: 1. stripped of any positions they held within the shul 2. Were banned from receiving any kibudim 3. Could not be a baal tefikah, baal kriyah or maagid shiurMay 13, 2020 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #1860289
Whatever the merits or lack thereof there was to react the way they did, what certainly is inexcusable is their decision to release a public letter advising their punishment.May 13, 2020 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #1860290
NEWS FLASH: Florida allows all houses of worship to operate, so there is no issue of dina demalusah and this happens off premise of YI so frankly its non of the their business. Its all about a bunch of grumpy old men on power trips.May 13, 2020 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #1860295Care4othersParticipant
Let me try to explain my understanding of the priorities of the Rav of the shul and all the other Rabanim who said no minyanim at this point in time.
As Yidden, our priority is to fulfill the ratzon Hashem. That should be our only priority. Let us, as we always should, look in the Torah, our guide on what is Hashem’s will for us right now.
#1 The Torah clearly says Hashem wants us to listen to the Rabanim in our times regardless if it seems to us that what they are saying is “right” seems to us as “left”. This might not be an easy challenge for some of us to accept. But right now the Rabanim said yes to grocery shopping, but no to minyin in shul! They said this very clearly.
If people go against what their Rav said, they are unfortunately transgressing the Torah’s laws!!!
#2 The Torah clearly says to follow the directions of the medical experts. (You may eat on yom kippur, or go against 610 of the 613 besed on your doctor’s recommendation.)
Based upon the above, I feel anyone making a minyin that is against their doctor’s or their Rov’s direction is unfortunately making a huge mistake in their whole attitude of life. The only reason we do the mitzvos is because it is rotzon Hashem. Trying to do these “mitzvos” when Hashem’s ratzon for us to refrain from it now is a transgression of the commandment Bal Tosif!!!
I understand that the regular yetzer hara is hard enough for us to battle. But even more confusing is when the yetzer hara it comes to us as the “frumer yetzer hara”.
My prayer for all of us is that we should have clarity in our priorities of what is the true will of Hashem right now. And to be able to fulfill his will with simcha, Even when his will is so different now than what it was in “normal” times.
I wish you all well, and will try to respond to constructive feedback. Wishing all of klall Yisrael a Rifuah and Nechama.May 13, 2020 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #1860309lowerourtuition11210Participant
as I asked in the comments section on the main page, were the shul members warned in advance of the possible consequences of conducting a non-sanctioned minyan?May 13, 2020 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #1860313MilhouseParticipant
This isn’t about minyanim or safety, it’s about the rov’s authority. The community has a rov, and he made a public psak. Members of his community needn’t agree with him, but he cannot allow them to publicly defy him. They can either comply despite their disagreement, or they can find another community to join. If he allowed them to make choizek of him and did not take such action against them, he would not be a rov but a shmatteh. How could he ever pasken anything again? This had to be done.May 13, 2020 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #1860337PhilParticipant
It’s obvious from the comments that most people aren’t familiar with this shul and think it’s just another Young Israel.
Century Village is a gated retirement community located in Deerfield Beach, FL with 30,000 senior citizens residing on its square mile property. The Young Israel of Deerfield Beach, located just outside the gate, is the only shul serving that community. Rabbi Yisroel Edelman, a Lubavitcher chasid, has led their 1,200 members for more than a decade with great dedication, especially to the health and safety concerns of his aging membership. Two months ago, the Rabbi and the Board wisely decided that they must close the shul and forbid all private minyanim since all of their members are at-risk seniors. Any breach of social distancing presents an imminent threat not only to their lives but to those of tens of thousands of other senior residents, many of them Jews.
The breach that occurred has no similarity to what might be happening in any other community. One can only imagine the nightmare scenario if ch”v the virus would begin to spread there. The Rav and the Board were correct to send this letter informing their members that such dangerous behavior has serious consequences and can’t be tolerated.
The sore loser who decided to publicize this letter beyond the shul membership will have to answer for it.May 13, 2020 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #1860404
NEWS FLASH: theres soemthing called daas torah and going against a psak which in every way deserves to be publicized and called out on…going against a psak of an area is much worse than any possible mitzvah one mightve gotten for favening with a minyan….just a side not the psak by our rabonnim nullify the mitzvahMay 13, 2020 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #1860408Abba_SParticipant
What this will do is encourage the break away minyan to be permanent. Since they already have a minyan it’s not hard for someone to use a garage or basement to make it permanent. If any of the members of the rogue minyan are popular, such as former officers of the YI,, they can recruit others to join their minyan. YI has a mortgage and salary expense for the rabbi, the lose of income during the pandemic plus the loss of income from the loss of members will push them closer to bankruptcy. People who join a backyard or porch minyan regularly go to shul and the loss of these members from YI may make it harder for YI to maintain a daily minyan.May 13, 2020 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #1860422lowerourtuition11210Participant
‘commonsaychel: “Its all about a bunch of grumpy old men on power trips.” I do not know the Morah Dasra of the shul but I think you owe him an apology for referring to him by such terms. He made a psak that was ignored. That letter was obviously sent to the members of the shul. Why it was published on this forum, I dont know.May 13, 2020 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #1860455
Thank you Phil for reiterating what my OP was aboutMay 13, 2020 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #1860458Reb EliezerParticipant
It says השופט אשר יהי-ה בימים ההם the judge who is around in his time. Says the Hafloah:
פנים יפות דברים פרק יז פסוק ט
אלא דקרא אתי לאשמעינן דאפילו אם הוא חולק על הראשון שהיה גדול ממנו, צריך לשמוע לו, לפי פשוטו כי ראוי לשמוע אל השופט כפי הזמן ולפי הדור כן מזמינים לו מן השמים השופט, ולפי שהדור אין ראוי להבין מעלות הדורות שלפניהם, כדכתיב [ישעיהו כט, יד] ואבדה חכמת חכמיו וכתיב [איוב יב, ב
.עמכם תמות החכמה
The pasuk is telling us, even if the second judge argues on the first who is greater than him, he must listen to the current judge. According to the simple pshat, because we must listen to the judge according to the times and generation. They provide us the judge from the heavens for the current generation as this generation is not worthy to appreciate the greatness of the previous generation.May 13, 2020 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #1860478GadolhadorahParticipant
The Rogue Minyanmachers are 100 percent entitled to participate in their own minyan contrary to the psak of the Rav of this shul. Likewise, the Rav (with support from the Board of the Shul) is entitled to exclude them from any kavod in that shul. Since they obviously disagree with the Rav, perhaps make their rouge minyan permanent.
Actions have consequences.May 13, 2020 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #1860486BenephraimParticipant
To RE et al. reminds me of administrative judges in NY who are not bound by precedent or stare decisis. By us there is Mesorah . Rashi learns the reverse that Yiftach is like Shmuel not the other way around. What do you say?May 13, 2020 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #1860513
Abba S., I sincerely hope you are better informed in other cases than you appear to be here.
There are no basements or garages. Century Village is a gated community of owner occupied Apartments. There is a limit of how many people can squeeze into an apartment, even if the Homeowner rules allowed it, which they don’t.
The Young Israel, when it’s open, gets hundreds of men to it’s daily minyanim so your concern is unwarranted.May 13, 2020 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #1860552
Dear Care, Realistic & Rebeliezer,
How is this applicable to our Rabonim? There is no difference between a rabbinic position or an academic one. Why is a local Rav different than a Rosh Yeshivah? How are they both different from the day laborer who knows more Torah than anybody alive?
A hundred percent entitled? That is too far.May 13, 2020 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #1860521Reb EliezerParticipant
Benephraim, I don’t understand you. When we say Yiftoch we are not excluding Shmuel but even Yiftoch who was not learned certainly Shmuel.May 13, 2020 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #1860538
anonymous jew, fact is YI is closed when the State of Florida allows it to be open, and some of its members said enough is enough. There is plenty of empty office space outside CV that can accommodate a smaller minyan.
PS Chabad is just around the corner from YIMay 13, 2020 11:47 pm at 11:47 pm #1860541
So, how an opinion is presented to the public reflects more than personal actions?May 13, 2020 11:48 pm at 11:48 pm #1860545
What happened to “Perkay avos says ahsay lecho rav, therefore people in Passaic should listen to the Passaic psak and people kin Lakewood should listen to Lakewood”?May 14, 2020 1:47 am at 1:47 am #1860584Care4othersParticipant
replying to n0mesorah:
You sound terribly similar to one of the main characters in Parshas Korach. Please do your soul a favor and research who what were and when is considered by halacha to be Torah authority. STOP YOUR DANGEROUS LETZUNUS!
(And I’m relating this because I truly care4U !!)May 14, 2020 11:28 am at 11:28 am #1860634GadolhadorahParticipant
noMesorah: Yes, 100 percent. A shul (as represented by its Rav and Board) have discretion as to the criteria they will use for selecting those for a kavod. Just as they many choose not to give a kavod to a davener who is a known machalel shabbos or is alleged to have committed domestic abuse, they may choose not to give a kavod to these members who publicly defied the psak of the Rav. End of story. My personal opinion is that they could revoke their membership and deny them entry to the shul, but they chose a lesser form of discipline. A shul is not a democracy and the Psak of a rav regarding public behavior is not a “suggestion”.May 14, 2020 11:28 am at 11:28 am #1860636
Commonseychel, to buy an apartment in Century Village you have to be no younger than 55 ( unless your spouse is over 55) and the average age of the residents is probably in the high 70s. Many snow birds are still in Florida and it would be virtually impossible on a Shabbos to socially distance 1500 to 1600 mispallim. Again, we are talking about a shul where everybody is in the most vulnerable category living in a community of 30,000 senior citizens.
Setting up a breakaway is not so simple and, despite what Abba says, it’s not cheap. You can’t have it on the Century Village property and whatever property you rent has to be close by and within the eruv. The expenses have to be spread out among fewer people. Besides, they would have to hire a lawyer to form a legal entity to be responsible for the lease because a landlord has to have someone legally and financially responsible. When you start talking money , watch how soon the rogue minyan dissipates. Aldo, if you’ve davened either nusach Ashkenaz or Sfard ( the YI has a Sfard minyan concurrent with the main minyan ) for 70 years, are you really going to feel comfortable switching to Nusach Ari and Chabad minhagim?
There is another important issue. In a a shul the size and age like Century Village, unfortunately illness, hospitalization and RL, death, is alot more common. Early in its history, when it was a lot smaller, the shul relied upon members who were retired rabbonim. However, as membership grew and with it, the need, it became unfair to the retired rabbonim so the shul hired a rav. So, what happens when the rogue minyan has a member in the hospital, confined at home or loses someone to illness, who do they call? Who supplies a shiva minyan, the chevrah kadisha? The shul they will no longer be supporting.
What I’m saying is that it’s not as simple as people are making it out to be.
BTW, small Friday night minyanim have always been allowed in pre Corona times because if you’re 82 and using a walker, it was too physically draining to walk a mile round trip to shul for a relatively short davening.May 14, 2020 11:28 am at 11:28 am #1860653yungerman1Participant
Its safe to assume that there is more that went on that we are not aware of. Most likely they were told directly by the Rov not to have a minyan and they told the Rov to go……. They were likely warned of the consequences as well.
The harshness of the letter seems to attest to that.May 14, 2020 11:28 am at 11:28 am #1860656
n0m. exactly my point, the Lakewood rabbonim were talking as a group, the 5 town rabbonim were talking as a group, same with Passic. Your not going to get everyone to agree but you can get a general consencus for the local area.
Sorry but there is nothing out there from ORB or Vaad of Miami on shuls during corona.May 14, 2020 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #1860686Avi KParticipant
So in time-honored Jewish tradition they will form their own shul. YAWN!May 14, 2020 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #1860691[email protected]Participant
All what that rabbi accomplished is that there is going to be competition now with a new shul and new rabbiMay 14, 2020 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #1860692
@common…not sure what youre talking about at least in the boca raton every rabbi came out together in strong terms against anything of the sort.
As far as their right to go somewhere else im sure they could but this matter is very simple if a person does not want to follow when their rav makes a psak then find somewhere else to go…they obviously dont get it.May 14, 2020 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #1860723
@godal Just out of curiosity, if the Rav in YIDB would have said no one who go to a mixed pool is allowed to go the amud or that women who don’t cover the hair even while not in shul would have the membership revoked would you still feel that way?May 14, 2020 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #1860726
@annoymus, these people did the same thing the Friday night people did, davened with a minyan, all participants were able bodies competent adults who knew what ever risk they were taking, no one was forced there.
Davening with a minyan is 1005 legal because it is listed as a essential service by the governor.
As far as the breakaway a number of fairly wealthy members are sick of the ego trips by the board and have no issues funding it, quite a number vacant commercial space within a stones throw of YIDBMay 14, 2020 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #1860757
Those who are pointing out the correctness and justification (and it certainly sounds that the punishment may have been well justified and appropriate) of the shul stripping these members of their rights and kibbudim, would certainly also agree that if a Rov ruled that it is mandatory for everyone to wear a skirt that’s minimally 4 inches below the knee and isn’t tight, sheitel that isn’t too long, etc., that it would be entirely appropriate and he’d be fully justified to punish the women violating that as well as their husbands/fathers who permitted it by stripping them of any honors, rights and kibbudim.May 14, 2020 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #1860797
Deerfield an hour north of Miami and has no connection to the Miami vaadMay 14, 2020 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #1860811
@anonymous, read what I wrote, neigher Vaad of Miami OR ORB put out an a statement closing shuls, the reason I referenced both is because those are the two local boards of rabbis for South Florida.
PS I drove from NMB to Deerfield during non rush hour and it took 28 minutesMay 14, 2020 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #1860844
..again not sure what youre talking about religous boca ratom rabbis put out a letter together closing shuls and minyanim…orb is a kashrus agency not a board that issues guidlines like the ou or agudah…the stark didnt either issue psak nor did chafk nor did the triangle k for what i know of…May 14, 2020 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #1860855
Did your vaad HAKASHRUS state that shuls are closed?May 14, 2020 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #1860858
I think I agree with that part. But, to say a breakoff minyan is covered by 100 percent entitlement is a little bit mean.May 14, 2020 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #1860864
Thank you! You are very kind. Been there, worked on that. (No such thing as done.) Maybe you can point me to something new. On a different post I wrote that I am have respect for all Rabbonim. That was not my point.
My point is, this is an issue of social conflict. People who follow their own paths away from the community, have to be amicable about it. If the Rav is for or against is not a factor. People have to answer to themselves first.May 14, 2020 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #1860910Abba_SParticipant
Since there is no private backyards or garages,in Deerfieild, this rogue minyan must be in someone’s dining/living room. A private minyan is probably against zoning,laws, coop and or condo board rules and or housing association regulations, which is why the YI has 1200 members. There is Federal case law in New Jersey when Toms River chalanged a Chabad House, permitting prayer groups of up to 50 people in a home. If small private minyans are allowed in apartments, why join a big shul where you can only get a kibud once or maybe twice a year,when in a small minyan everyone can get a Kibud every week. Why walk out of the housing complex when you have a minyan in the building?, I could be wrong but shul dues and assorted fees are between $2-5 thousand per member, while an apartment minyan cost nothing unless they want to hire a cantor and or a bal koray.May 15, 2020 12:32 am at 12:32 am #1860947
Abba: Without addressing any other point, it is illegal for a condo, coop or local zoning ordinance to outlaw, prevent, preclude or otherwise inhibit a religious gathering, as such would be a clear violation of the First Amendment.May 15, 2020 12:33 am at 12:33 am #1860945
Why Go to a minyan? Why daven? Zero walking. Zero cost.May 15, 2020 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #1861002
“Since there is no private backyards or garages,in Deerfieild, this rogue minyan must be in someone’s dining/living room“
Where do you get that logic from?
They Daven on the grass around the buildingMay 15, 2020 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #1861003
@abba , the case in Tom River is suing under RUPLA and that forces the municipality to try to make reasonable accommodation, so far that has not happened, having 9 other people in your condo is no different then inviting the over to a card game and that happens daily in the retirement communities.May 15, 2020 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #1861021
Joseph, I’m not an attorney, and neither are you However, just like Abba and others, , you are making statements without ever having seen Century Villsge.
Century Village is a private gated community and as such, may not be subject to the First Amendment. All the roads in CV are private, as is all the land. State universities are subject to the first Amendment, private colleges are not.
Abba, as of 2018 dues in that YI are $1250 a person, not between 2 and 5 thousand.May 15, 2020 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #1861038
AJ: I specifically mentioned in my comment I was speaking generally and not specifically regarding this case. That having been, I take issue with your comment nevertheless. If Century Village were to ban any practice of religion on their premises, say by saying no people may pray in their homes, that would certainly be a violation of the law. Saying no minyanim is saying no praying.May 15, 2020 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #1861046
Joseph, please don’t distort. You davening maariv in your house is not the same as establishing an organized shul/church/mosque in your apartment. This discussion is about establishing a breakaway from the YI of Deerfield so, if your comment was in general, it was irrelevant.May 15, 2020 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #1861053
Two years ago I read a court decision about freedom of religion in a private community. It was not discussing gatherings, but it seemed like they could ban them. Because they want everyone to use/rent the social hall.May 15, 2020 2:30 pm at 2:30 pm #1861060
Define “establishing an organized shul/church/mosque in your apartment”. If someone invites his friends over for lunch in his dining room and afterwards, or even instead of lunch, he and those friends pray in his dining room, he is doing a personal and religious protected activity. No different legally than if he had invited those same people to play Solitaire, Stratego or Bingo in his living room. If there’s no law or regulation prohibiting friends from gathering in the living room for a game of solitaire or for lunch then legally there can be no regulation or law against praying, instead, in the living room.May 15, 2020 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #1861099
they may even have something a about limiting guests on your patio. This is efsher l’varer. Maybe the contract is available online.May 15, 2020 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #1861108
Joseph ,You’re not inviting ten people to your home 3 times a day ,7 days a week to play solitaire. Chances are than ten people in your home, not creating a disturbance , would not be an issue. But, if a neighbor found out that you were holding services on a regular basis ( defining the establishment of a shul ) they could report you to the Home Owners Assoc and create a problem. In any event, you cant get more than 15 people in the apartment. Where would their wives daven?
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