Gadol vs. Rebbi

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  • #1968041
    Dovid Greenberg
    Participant

    Gadol vs. Rebbi

    I went to a Gadol for a bracha. When I was there, the Gadol told me to follow a particular mehalach. The Gadol went out of his way to tell me that I should follow his horoah even if my Rebbi disagrees. My Rebbi holds, however, that this is not the right mehalach for me, and advised me to follow his own opinion. What should I do?

    #1968092
    huju
    Participant

    To David Greenberg: So you went to a Gadol for a bracha? Did you hear the one about the Jew with the Jaguar automibile?

    #1968081
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    You came to the right place for Hadracha. Let me, in all my glory, advise you and be machria, between the two… without knowing anything of course…

    #1968083
    smerel
    Participant

    More info needed.

    Did you ASK him for his opinion about following a particular mehalch?

    Why did you ask him and not your rebbe in the first place? Once you asked it isn’t so simple to ignore his opinion.

    If OTOH he offered his opinion without you asking then I don’t think you are bound by it if your Rebbe says otherwise. Asking for a brocha from a godal doesn’t obligate you to follow his mehalech hachaim.

    #1968115
    ujm
    Participant

    How do you know that he’s a Godol?

    #1968122
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I heard once, if you are by a Rebbe, the Rebbe is the Shulchan Aruch but when away from the Rebbe the Shulchan Aruch is the Rebbe. So i would agree with smerel to follow your Rebbi in mehalach and hashkafa as gedolim many times disagree.

    #1968124
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    I remember when I was in Darchei Torah, a Chassidish Rebbe came to the area. Many guys were trying to get appointments to see him. I also did (you’ll hear why soon).
    The Rosh Yeshiva got up and told everyone, “I understand the attraction of going to see a Chassidisher Rebbe. But why would you go to him when you have such amazing Rabbeim here? You need advice? You want a bracha? Ask your Rebbe here! He knows you, he knows what you need, so speak to him!”
    He approached me afterward, and told me, “I heard you have an appointment to see the Rebbe tomorrow. Are you still going to keep it?”
    I replied, “Yes, I am. Because I spoke to my Rebbe, and he told me that I should go speak to this visiting Rebbe!”
    The R”Y smiled, and said, “If he told you to go, I can’t argue – and I’m glad you asked him first!”

    #1968203
    The little I know
    Participant

    I do not see why this is a question. We have two Mishnayos in Pirkei Avos.

    עשה לך רב וקנה לך חבר

    עשה לך רב והסתלק מן הספק

    The first is for general guidance, how to grow in עבודת ה’. The second is to answer your questions and doubts. We all need both. Awfully convenient if they are the same individual.

    #1968209

    Dovid, what does your Father think about it?

    #1968210

    and Mother

    #1968246
    user176
    Participant

    A good rabbi will clarify for you the sedadim, help you understand the pros and cons, and let you decide on your own. Clearly both are good options. Your question is very vague anyway. We have no idea what this is even regarding.

    #1968271
    Dovid Greenberg
    Participant

    The Gadol told me to start shidduchim, although I am only nineteen. My Rebbi told me that I am not ready. My parents don’t have an opinion either way.

    #1968355
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Your rebbi knows you better personaly than the gadol.

    #1968413

    Analyze – did you say something hat lead Gadol to mention the idea or is it something he recommends everyone? maybe you said – I have too much time on my hands, FB timeline is endless, etc? And then reflect whether your statement was a good indication of your state of mind … That the two disagree is a good reason to thorough analyze where you stand

    from personal experience, decades ago, once a Rav visited for a wedding and had a short conversation with me and another of his former students. We had very similar backgrounds, age. I was in a PhD program, my friend was in a not-very-rewarding profession (still is). We compared notes afterwards: he told my friend to move to the yeshiva, and he told me to add a class learning with his Lakewood friend who just moved into town (I am still in that class).

    #1968411
    user176
    Participant

    Why does he think you are not ready? Why do you want to start dating? What can you do to be ready? What if you find someone right away, what are the ramifications? Discuss it with the rebbe and understand what is behind his opinion. Things like this are not just about “who do I listen to.” This is a fairly simple question that you can very well understand what is behind the opinions and make a decision. There are some things that you should ask and accept what you are told, not every question is like that. If you sit with your rebbe and explain to him why you think you are ready, and why it makes sense, and is what you really want to do, I am sure he will say ok go ahead.

    #1968437

    I think someone here quoted already a discussion between Satmar Rebbe (who was for earlier marriages) and a dayan who was not. The latter explained that the Rebbe is invited to weddings, but he has to do divorces … maybe there is a similar difference of experiences between the Gadol and the Rebbe?

    #1968543
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There is a story from the Satmar Rebbe ztz’l who was asked, if there is a chasan and a bar mitzva in a shul who gets maftir? He said, whoever is older.

    #1968561
    CTRebbe
    Participant

    Perhaps the whole concept of going to a gadol for advice on a personal issue has no classical basis in Judaism. Can anyone bring a source that does or is it perhaps a modern phenomenon? My understanding of “asei lecha Rav” is that there are many different pathways, hashkafot, derech in pesak etc.” and one needs to just choose a path. A person therefore needs to find a Rav/Rebbe who he feels is closest to is own style and way of thinking and go with it 100%. You do that with the understanding that there are other legitimate ways but you need to choose one.
    As a simple example, let’s say you come across something that is a machlokes in halacha between R. Moshe & R. Shlomo Zalman Zt”l. Who an I to determine which one is a bigger gadol? So I need to choose someone to give guidance and a psak.
    I wonder if the idea of “going to a gadol for eitza” in place of going to one’s own Rebbe coincided with our turning gedolim into props for a photo op? Do all the people that come to ask questions to R. Chamim Kanievsky first ask the same question to everyone else on the totem pole and no one could give an answer until the only place to turn was R. Chaim? Or do we just look for an opportunity to tell people “Do you know how great I am? I had a question and I spoke to R. Chaim….”

    And all this is coming from THE Rebbe of CT!

    #1968582
    ujm
    Participant

    CTR: Emunas Chachamim.

    #1968583
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There is a validated story of my Rebbi who when he was young was called in Hungary to be drafted into the army. He went to Rav Yanoson Steif ztz’l who told him to say the incantation, lachash, izei debei tabche shemaina minei. the goats in the slaughter house are fatter than me. As he ended saying it, his hand turned to green blotches as a metzora. When the doctor saw him, he threw him out fearing to be infected. When he went outside, the whole thing disappeared.

    #1968588
    rational
    Participant

    If someone has to ask a shailah if he is ready for shidduchim, the answer is that he is not.

    #1968599
    samthenylic
    Participant

    Now! If you find a “Rebbe Gadol”, your problems are solved. As a “rule of thumb”. once you ask, you have to follow through. Who knows you better? Who dictates your day-to-day?
    Follow him, & DON’T EVEN ASK the other party.

    #1968609
    ujm
    Participant

    If someone has the seichel to ask a shailah if he is ready for shidduchim, the answer is that he is.

    #1968634
    CTRebbe
    Participant

    UJM- a phrase that is bandied around the yeshiva world is not a valid mekor. You can do better than that

    #1968635
    CTRebbe
    Participant

    UJM- Just to clarify, bring a source that says when a person has a question he should go and ask a gadol before (or after) his Rebbe/Rav.

    #1968648

    RebE >> chasan and a bar mitzva

    I heard it from a lady who is old enough to have been there, so this might be true!

    #1968650

    CTRebbe – recall a case within last month of Daf Yomi, must be Shekalim, when someone not satisfied with a person passing halakhic story from a traveler, went to the original source and asked him.

    There is also Rav Yehudah disapproving a visiting youngester, told to be a Haham, when he turned out not to wear a kippah/turban because he is still not married. This sounds like an example of unsolicited advice from a Gadol to a person he does not know. But maybe we can start with Gemora examples when someone asks a Rav permission to get married and see what the discussion leads to?

    On the opposite side, I saw an interview of R Gifter in the 60s where he says most marital problems are due to marrying too early.

    #1968689
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Satmar Rebbi ztz’l is known for a good sense of humor. Someone put one hand in his pocket, so he told him to put both hands in as ein davar sheb’erva pachos mishnayim.

    #1968749
    ujm
    Participant

    CTR: Emunas Chachamim isn’t merely a “phrase”. It is a Torah obligation.

    #1968808

    ujm: CTR: Emunas Chachamim isn’t merely a “phrase”

    ujm, I think CTR is asking you to define the notion precisely from the sources. If it is a Torah obligtion, you need to define what the procedures are.

    #1968809
    CTRebbe
    Participant

    UJM: If you are referring to the obligation from zaken mamre of ” lo sasur” (Devarim 17: 10,11) that is referring to a psak in halacha given by the sanhedrin. Yes, we have a system in place (Torah obligation as you put it) in how to follow halcha when there is a machlokes. Apparently the question of the OP is one that relates to either hashkafa or personal guidance, not a bona fide machlokes involving a majority opinion against a daas yachid.

    Once again I ask you to give a source that says for personal guidance a person should ask a gadol shebeyisroel before (or after) he asks his own Rav/Rebbe.

    #1968820
    CHOOSID
    Participant

    GADOL VS. REBBI VS. YESHIVA WORLD COFFEE ROOM???!!!
    If your rebbe says one way, Gadol says another….then mistama’ you should listen to a random person you dont know in a online chatroom.

    #1969114
    CTRebbe
    Participant

    Chosid: What makes you think that the random person in the Yeshiva World coffee room is not the gadol in question? Where else does an adom gadol go to chill?

    #1970669
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Maybe have a shadachan put this question before prospective dates.

    You may end up fulfilling both opinions.

    #1970675

    choosid > If your rebbe says one way, Gadol says another….then mistama’ you should listen to a random person

    I am not sure why people are asking oorim vetumim, or maybe answering. I am surprised why the adults did not explain the rational for their advice. If they did, he could have something to think about. So, he can at least get ideas to explore here, or go back to his parents/teachers and ask for more details.

    PS Usual reason not to give reasons is to make the person follow the rule without an ability to apply his biases and get away from the ruling.

    #1970673

    >> a’ you should listen to a random person
    > random person in the Yeshiva World coffee room is not the gadol

    Mi hu haham? halomed mikol adam, that’s YWN! And – as we learned in another thread – haham gadol mirav …(ve adif minavi)

    on a more serious note: if your parents are not giving you their opinion – maybe they don’t want to push you one way or another. Maybe ask them, or grandparents/uncles, more open-ended questions – what does it mean to be ready/ not ready in your circles? be able to support family? graduate degree? emotionally stable? become tired of learning? when did people in your family get married and how they feel about it later?

    #1970924
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I heard from rmy rebbi a cute, joking interpretation. It says שאל אביך ויגדך זקינך ויאמרו לך ask your father and he will tell you, go to the zaida, my father and he will answer you.

    #1970935
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    There is a larger message here. In today’s world, our youth are being told that they should get married younger/are not ready to get married. Shouldn’t they have other things to be advised about? Isn’t this something that young adults do for themselves?

    #1971097

    >> Isn’t this something that young adults do for themselves?

    We are surrounded by te society where people generally can not figure it out for themselves, so this is something that Jewish community is rightly focusing on. Head in a class on giur, that there is a subgroup of non-Jewish women who convert because they see the beauty of Jewish attitude towards families.

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