Gavrah/ Cheftza

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  • #1885218
    Maivin
    Participant

    I was wondering… is a Gavrah also a Cheftza or not?

    #1885265
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    For example, the service of the Leviim.

    #1885288
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    n0mesorah, how is a gavra a cheftza by the leviim’s service? Maybe the parents are a cheftza (object) of the mitzva of kibud av voaim.

    #1885279

    When i was learning by my holy teacher Rabbi Dr. Andrew Sinowitz he told me over from i believe Aristotle or Plato that E pluribus Unum means that out of the collective it is one and we can deduce from there that only in the collective is the man considered an object, which is the cheftza of achdut. May he rest in peace. truly an Honorable man.

    #1885315
    hu bacha
    Participant

    why are you bringing proofs from aristotle and plato, they were Sonei yisroel, how how about bringing a proof from Reb chaim brisker, he talks about what a gavra and chetza is, in hilchos korban pesach, regarding a kid who became bar mitsva after pesach etc. look over there and understand what hes saying then all your questions will be answered. first understand what is a chiyuv of a gavram and a chiyuv of a cheftsa, and then you have to figure out, how can a cheftza have a chiuv, only a gavra can have a chiyuv? i belive this is what Reb Chaim is trying to answer in that shtickel. let me know what you think.

    #1885257
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Maybe a cheftza shel mitzva like Yaakov Avinu said to Lavan, bring me my wife to have relations with her.

    #1885523
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Reb Eliezer,
    My parents are not my esrog. I am not to treat them in some ritualistic manner, like a symbolic object. The wishes and the honor of my parents is the cheftza. The same with Yaakov and Rachel.

    But the Leviim are part of the ritualistic act that is incumbent on all the Yidden to ensure it’s continuity. Just like the Beis Hamikdash is a cheftza, so too are the Leviim on their watch or platform. They could be defined as the cheftzah of being present within the required context.

    #1885525
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    The Rabbi Doctor Zundel Stevie Anderson! Unbelievable!

    #1885617
    Maivin
    Participant

    no mesora,
    clearly no mesora.

    #1885613
    Maivin
    Participant

    NO MESORA

    what are you talking about?
    what is the connection?

    #1885652
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Maivin,
    What is your question?

    #1885667
    Maivin
    Participant

    To no Mesorah.

    My question is as follows, is a person who is Mugdar a Gavrah also considered a Cheftza Mitzad the Cheftza of his body?

    #1885760
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    By Yaakov Avinu Bereshis 29,21 I am trying to answer Rashi’s kashye to have children.

    #1886240
    Benephraim
    Participant

    Are you saying that the 2 dinim דרך הלימוד of Reb Chaim Brisker refer to the din on the gavra and the din on the cheftza?

    And are you also saying that without Brisker Torah you can not have 2 dinim and also you could not define Gavra and Cheftza?

    I will try to conceptualize this dichotomy for you depending on your havanah.

    #1886305
    Maivin
    Participant

    Benephraim

    Neither of thee above is true.
    The Briskers never made up Gavrah and Cheftza. look through out shas and rambam and youll find it.
    And also tzvei dinim, it is practically in every 5th tosfos in shas. (4 those who know how learn a tosfos)

    #1886321
    Benephraim
    Participant

    Thanks for your הבנה and by corollary the minimizing of the Brisker derech. Would it be safe to say that you dispute the statement that רב חיים האט אופגעבראכען ש”ס. ? BE

    #1886340
    Maivin
    Participant

    Benephraim

    What are you getting at?!!

    #1886347
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    BE, Rav Chaim says that the cheftza of Torah requires a brocho as birchas Hatorah even women.

    #1886520
    Maivin
    Participant

    Dear Ben Ephraim.

    I chas veshalom would not minimize the contribution of the briskers.
    R’ Chaim said that R’ Akiva Eiger had 12 mehalchim in every sugya, and one of them were Gavra Cheftza, and thus we see that R’ Chaim never nade up Tzvei Dinim, rather R’ Chaim’s Chidush was, that he systemized these mehalchim into each and every sugya…

    Now, If a person man or woman toivels in a mikvah, is he a chftza or is he still a gavrah??

    #1889594
    Benephraim
    Participant

    Let me suggest this for you. The din is that on something that is assur you don’t bentch. Now if you have chazir as the issur, is it the same as something that is stolen and is assur? see what I am trying to say ?

    #1889608
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Kidnapping someone would be the gavra the cheftza. This could be why it is indicated in lo signov, no nignav, singular, whereas stealing something from someone involves two individuals, the ganev and the nignav, so it says lo signovu, plural.

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