Gebrokts on Pesach

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  • #612479

    Pardes House
    Member

    How come even those who don’t eat gebrokts (matzo balls etc.) on Pesach, do so on the last day of pesach

    #1067462

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Ask Reb Lev.

    #1067463

    dafyomi2711
    Member

    because the last day is derabbonan.

    #1067464

    akuperma
    Participant

    The traditional explanation is that one needs to make clear this is a optional hiddur mitzvah, not a halacha. One chooses to do a mitsvah in the best way, even though one is compelled to do it only in the most minimal way.

    #1067465

    shebbesonian
    Participant

    Akuperma: not to disagree with you, but you’re mixing up terms. gebrokts does not fall under the category of hiddur mitzva. Hiddur mitzva applies to ????? ???, such as buying a nice tallis or lulav and esrog… Gebrokts falls under the category of chumra.

    #1067466

    akuperma
    Participant

    There is a positive command to remove all hametz. Gebroks is just going out of your way to do so. It’s like wearing a really nice set of clothes on Shabbos (one only has to wear one’s best clothes, and they have to be respectable – going out of the way to own a really fancy Shabbos suit is a hiddur, not a humrah).

    If it was a humrah, such as kitniyos, it would be prohibited on the 8th day.

    #1067468

    chachem
    Member

    there is no basis in gemara for this minhag. why deny so many jews matza balls and mezonos cakes and how do you make a kiddush without having it b’makom seuda with mezonos cake? we sould spend more energy being machmir on bein adom l’chaveiro and davening better.

    #1067469

    shebbesonian
    Participant

    akuperma: The positive command of of “tashbisu” does not apply ON pesach. The deadline is erev pesach. Therefore, gebrokts cannot be a hidur of tashbisu. Gebrokts is a chumra on the negative command not to eat chametz on Pesach. This chumra was not accepted for the last day of Pesach, even though kitniyos was. Perhaps kitniyos is a more serious worry than gebrokts, and that is why we refrain from kitniyos even on the last day.

    #1067470

    Sam2
    Participant

    The way the Chassidim say it is that they want to show that it’s not really Chametz so that they won’t come to think that us Gebrochts-eating people aren’t Over on eating Chametz.

    #1067471

    Chortkov
    Participant

    akuperma: The positive command of of “tashbisu” does not apply ON pesach. The deadline is erev pesach.

    Actually, that is not necassarily true – the Minchas Chinuch brings two tzdoddim about this whether Tashbisu is a Kum V’Aseh or if the Kiyum is by passively “not having chometz” on Pesach.

    #1067472

    benignuman
    Participant

    My understanding was that because the 8th day is d’rabbanan and Gebrokts is a safek and safek d’rabbanan l’hokil.

    Furthermore we are meikil to show that Gebrokts is a veite chashash and that those that do not keep it are not, chas v’shalom, eating chametz.

    Chachem, there are many minhagim which are post-Talmud in origin.

    #1067473

    shebbesonian
    Participant

    yekke 2: true, but if it’s a kum v’aseh, then you can only do it before pesach, and if it’s a passive aseh, then i find it hard to believe there is an idea of hiddur on a passive mitzvah. if you can find me a precedent that’s fine. But otherwise, I would classify gebrokts as a chumra, not a hiddur.

    #1067474

    chachem
    Member

    benignuman: i say it is a minhag shtus because it causes a lot of strife and shalom bayis problems because of the tension it creates for the family.

    #1067475

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    My understanding was that because the 8th day is d’rabbanan and Gebrokts is a safek and safek d’rabbanan l’hokil.

    My understanding is a bit different (although it could very well be wrong).

    My understanding is that the 8th day is a safek* and g’brochts is a safek (i.e. we’re not sure that there is uncooked flour…). For a safek, you are machmir. For a double safek (s’fek, s’feika) you are not.

    Not that it matters to me all that much — I eat g’brochts all of Pesach.

    The Wolf

    * Of course, today, we know that the 8th day is not really a safek anymore now that we have a set calendar (further reason to be lenient in this regard)… we only keep it out of minhag.

    #1067476

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    i say it is a minhag shtus because it causes a lot of strife and shalom bayis problems because of the tension it creates for the family.

    Any family which can’t handle keeping gebrokts has much bigger problems.

    #1067477

    benignuman
    Participant

    Wolf,

    I have heard it that way as well. However that doesn’t really make sense because the minhag of Gebrokts arose well after we already had a set calendar (although hadavar kal v’chomer hu).

    #1067478

    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    Agree with DaasYochid.

    #1067479

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Any family which can’t handle keeping gebrokts has much bigger problems.

    Just to make sure I’m understanding you correctly…

    Are you saying that any family that eats g’brochts on Pesach must have problems?

    Or am I misunderstanding you?

    The Wolf

    #1067480

    golfer
    Participant

    Agree with DY.

    Strife and Shalom Bayis issues over food??!?

    How important exactly is food to you?

    More important than getting along with your spouse or offspring?

    I’ve had an argument (or two) in my life (trying not to divulge too much personal info) but over FOOD?

    I have the greatest admiration, by the way, for a few acquaintances who got sons-in-law with major Pesach chumros and overhauled their menus to accomodate them.

    For my own part I’ve been know to adjust the menu for picky eaters or guests’ preferences where no Halachos or minhagim were involved.

    If the company is good and the table is set nicely I always feel it’s a beautiful seuda!

    #1067481

    Chortkov
    Participant

    shebbesonian – You are probably right; I wasn’t arguing about the Hiddur element, I was just commenting on his hagdoro of Tashbisu

    .

    #1067482

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Are you saying that any family that eats g’brochts on Pesach must have problems?

    Or am I misunderstanding you?

    No, yes. C’mon, Wolf, you know I have more seichel than that.

    I am responding to chachem’s assertion that keeping (i.e. refraining from) gebrokts causes strife and shalom bayis problems. I am asserting that any family which can’t peacefully navigate the “difficulty” of having to avoid matzo meal products and dunking their matzo into coffee is dysfunctional to begin with.

    #1067483

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Wolf, it was a response to the Chachem Einer.

    The eighth day was established because of a Safek but it in itself is simply Miderabanan. Gebroktz is more a Chumra than a Safek. You don’t have a Tzad Issur; you are merely Machmir in case of something.

    Anyone who at this point will call an Hanhaga of Gedolei Olam a Minhag Shtus has bigger problems, as well.

    #1067484

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I am responding to chachem’s assertion that keeping (i.e. refraining from) gebrokts causes strife and shalom bayis problems. I am asserting that any family which can’t peacefully navigate the “difficulty” of having to avoid matzo meal products and dunking their matzo into coffee is dysfunctional to begin with.

    Thank you for the clarification.

    The Wolf

    #1067485

    zaidy78
    Participant

    While I am not Chabad, and I do “brok”, I too was bothered by this question and once heard a fantastic pshat in the name of the Lubavitcher Rebbe (Don’t know which one).

    The korban that we bring on the 2nd day of Pesach is the Korban Omer which was barley. Barley in the terms of gemara is “maachal behaima” (animal food). This represents that even though the Jewish nation was born when we came out of mitzrayim, we were still growing until Shavuos which we brought the Korban Shtei HaLechem which is “maachal adom” (human food). The avoda during sefira is to take us further from our animalistic traits and bring us to more humane and Godly traits.

    The last day of Pesach is also the first day of second week on sefira. To represent one more step from the basic animalistic nature (of eating anything BASIC just purely for survival) to a more human nature (of enjoying fantastic food) there is an “inyan” to eat gebroks.

    Am I totally satisfied with this explanation? Not really. But its some sort of beginning of an explanation. (No one would say that because the last day is miderabanan you should start eating something that is ossur bi’dirabanan!)

    #1067486

    oomis
    Participant

    Any family which can’t handle keeping gebrokts has much bigger problems. “

    I know you didn’t mean that the way it sounded. I have two grandkids who cannot eat nuts (the seeds are not shayach for Pesach), and one of them ALSO cannot be exposed even a little to eggs. So my first two Sedarim days will include charoses with no ground nuts, no cakes, kugels, or mousses (forget about hardboiled eggs for Shulchan Areich), or any other item for which I typically would need to include those items. I also have a daughter who cannot have gluten, so even if I COULD make a cake, it is safer for it it to be non-gebrochts, so we avoid cross-contamination issues. With only one or two exceptions (noted below), I avoid the use of gebrochts in our traditionally-gebrochts-eating household.

    My wonderful, sweet son-in-law (father of the two allergic kids)who is worth a million brochos to me, only eats Shmurah matzah the entire Pesach, so when they come for any portion of yom tov, unless I feel like making EVERYTHING twice, I only use Shmurah mehl and farfel (and then I have to really be careful because of the gluten problem from my other daughter). I make phenomenal farfel, like a rice side dish, but it is somewhat labor intensive, so where I used to make it in both Shmurah and non-Shmurah forms (and would give them the leftover Shmurah farfel to take home with them), now I will most likely only do the Shmurah, because it is just too tiring to do both these days. BTW, the non-Shmurah tastes SUBSTANTIALLY better, and I am at a loss as to why machine Shmurah matzah does not look and taste exactly the same as non-Shmurah, if the only difference is in the supervision of the wheat from start to finish. And it DOES taste very different, more like whole wheat matzah than typical boxed matzah. But that’s a whole ‘nother thread…

    Bottom line, we do what we have to do for Pesach. But no one should be critical of someone else who DOES eat gebrochts. We should be delighted that so many Jews the world over OBSERVE Pesach. Even Jews who are frei, have Seder dinners, and though not the ideal, it still shows the pintele Yid in all of us.

    #1067487

    takahmamash
    Participant

    Bottom line, we do what we have to do for Pesach. But no one should be critical of someone else who DOES eat gebrochts. We should be delighted that so many Jews the world over OBSERVE Pesach. Even Jews who are frei, have Seder dinners, and though not the ideal, it still shows the pintele Yid in all of us.

    As usual, oomis hits the nail on the head. I wish I could express myself in my writing as well as she does.

    My mom used to make fantastic farfel, I could eat bowl after bowl of it.

    #1067488

    zappy
    Member

    well my minhag is NOT to eat gebrokts on the 8th day. Because my grandfather zatz”al said that if were keeping gebrokts then we may as well do the 8th day also what MAJOR difrence does it make if you kept gebrokts 7 days why cant you do another day, you survived until now!

    #1067489

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    In the Haggaddah of Rav Sholmo Zalman Auerbach, It talks about some of his minhaggim , like that he used to say the Mah Nishtana after all the kids said it or that he used to mix the Wine with grape juice.

    It also says in his later years he would wet the Matza before eating it

    #1067490

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    And your point is?

    So RSZ”A did not have a minhag of gebrokts, or as it is called in the seforim, matzoh shruyah. And we also know that it was hard for him to chew when he was older.

    Not everyone has the same minhagim if RSZA. And he never said it is a minhag shtus.

    BTW, where in the Haggadah does it say that, I would like to read it myself.

    #1067491

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    ZDad, if your point is to try to prove that the Minhag of not eating Gebroktz is not universal, you don’t have to work that hard.

    #1067492

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The point is whenever there is a chumra people say “Well chashuv rav So and So did it that way, dont you want to be like chashuv Rav So and So”

    Well when a Rav doesnt do a Chumra people make all sorts of excuses why he did it . I think we can agree that Rav Shlomo Zalman did not take Culas and knew the Halacha well.

    Its not in the regular Haggaddah, Its in the Haggadah of Rav Shlomo Zalman Auberbach. It came out after his death

    #1067493

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    ZDad, this is a Chashash that even those who are Choshesh for it say is far-fetched. It is followed because of the Minhag. And those who originated this Hakpada did so only because of the stringency of Pesach in general, like Tosafos tells us regarding the Chiyuv of Bedika. Besides, I did not see or hear the argument that you should want to be like that Gadol who is Machmir. I did hear the argument that if you are a Yerei Shamayim you would keep far away from a chance of an Issur. Hence the term, Yerei Shamayim Yotze Yedei Shneihem and Hamchmir Tavo Alav Bracha.

    #1067494

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    It truly doesn’t bother me when others don’t have my Chumros. Why do I get the feeling that it bothers you when others don’t have your Kulos?

    #1067495

    eyefortruth
    Member

    i didnt go through all these pots so i dont know if this particular point was addressed, but its quite clear that one has a mitzvah min hatorah to rid chametz from his home even on pesach. there is a discussion in the rishonim as to whether or not the mitzvah of tashbisu is to be in a chametz-free state when chatzos comes, or if it means that when chatzos comes we must now rid ourselves of chametz. however, the rambam who clearly paskens the former understanding, says that if someone does a bedika on pesach because he forgot or was unable to do so before pesach, he makes a bracha on the bedika, whereas after pesach he would not (and yes, he would need to do a bedika after pesach. i cannot recall offhand the particular halachah but its either the second or third perek of hilchos chametz umatzah). the least it would be would be a mitzvah to remove the possibility of being over the issur of bal yeraeh ubal yimatzeh, but truthfully it seems quite clear that a person has a positive mitzvah to remove the chametz from his reshus on pesach as well.

    as for gebroks, i enjoy my matzah brye and mtzah balls every pesach, and plan on continuin to do so. i cannot understrand the minhag, it makes absolutely no sense. the shulchan aruch brings lihalachah that a zaken or choleh who cannot chew and swallow the matzah can soak it in water and be mekayem his mitzvas aseh of achilas matzah with said matzah (provided that it doesnt become completely broken up because of the water). there is also the halacha that matzah can never bcome chametz. i cannot grasp the notion that the same matzah that one will eat to fulfill his tora obligation of matzah, will at the same time be suspected of not even being matzah. is there not a more tarti desatri than that? anyways, enough of my rant against gebroks. the reality is, 99% of people who keep it keep it because its their minhag. just like kitniyos. everyone would abandon such a minhag in a heartbeat if they had the ability to, but what can we do, i guess we need a ??? ??? ????? ????? ??????

    #1067496

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Halevi, please correct me if I misunderstood,. Are you saying eating Gebroktz is a Kula? Thanks

    #1067497

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    I know there is a RSZA Haggadah, it too has page numbers. I have a copy. I want you to tell me where it is.

    #1067498

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I think we can all agree Rav Shlomo Zalman knows the Halacha and is a Yiras Shamayim.

    I dont know who put out the Hagaddah since it was put out after his death, but it was likely his sons or grandsons (I am purely guessing here) or perhaps one of his big talmidim with the approval of the sons and grandsons,but Im sure the wet Matza was put in there with someone approval and that it was true

    #1067499


    Participant

    It truly doesn’t bother me when others don’t have my Chumros. Why do I get the feeling that it bothers you when others don’t have your Kulos?

    It bothers me when others say that I’m relying on a Kula when in fact I’m following the Shittah of the Chacham Tzvi.

    I have complained in the past that the recipie section on this forum only has place for Non Gebrukts recipes.

    #1067500

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    I asked a simple question. Where does it say it in the RSZA Haggadah? Do you know? Have you seen it?

    All of which is really besides the point. Do you eat the ????? as it is brought in Haggadah of ????? ?

    Do you even know how it says one should eat the ?????? And that is Halacha, not minhag.

    #1067501

    oomis
    Participant

    In my humble opinion, the danger of certain types of chumros lies in the reality that those who follow the Halacha, but not the Chumrah, are viewed by SOME Chumrah observers as being somehow less frum than they are.

    #1067502

    oomis
    Participant

    Anyone have a kugel or cake recipe that uses NO eggs OR nuts(highly allergic toddler coming to us for yom tov)?

    #1067503

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    The only person I know of who held that refraining from gebrokts was a shtus was the Vilna Gaon. He said that if you don’t eat gebrokts, you’re not fulfilling your obligation of simchas Yom Tov.

    #1067504

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    In my humble opinion, the danger of certain types of chumros lies in the reality that those who follow the Halacha, but not the Chumrah, are viewed by SOME Chumrah observers as being somehow less frum than they are

    – – at least in the eyes of those who don’t keep the Chumra.

    Now, this whole discussion of Chumra does not come here, by Gebroktz, since everyone is saying Peh Echad that it is more a Minhag than a Chumra. Those tying in anti-Chumra stuff here, where it really does not belong, give weight to the sentiment that there is actually a resentment to it rather than “my Rav doesn’t hold that way.”

    #1067505

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “The only person I know of who held that refraining from gebrokts was a shtus was the Vilna Gaon.”

    Where is this written?

    #1067506

    Sam2
    Participant

    HaLeiVi: Actually, it belongs even more. There are far, far too many people who think those who eat Gebrochts aren’t Frum. It’s sad and frustrating.

    #1067507

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There are far, far too many people who think those who eat Gebrochts aren’t frum. It’s sad and frustrating.

    You know something? I eat gebrokts, and if someone would think it makes me not frum, I think I would find it more humorous than anything else. Maybe a little sad as well.

    I think it is possibly more sad that people are so sensitive to others’ chumros. If you really think that what you’re doing is 100% fine, why would you care what other people do or think?

    #1067508

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: When I saw my Rav’s wife crying because some moronic Balabas thought her house was Treif because she made Gebrokts, I knew something was seriously wrong.

    #1067509

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    She was crying for him, or because she was insulted?

    #1067510

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The reason why people care is because “no man is an island” People mix with each other and Gebroach eaters and non-gebroach eaters will usually mix in some form either a family event. Shopping at the same store etc.

    You are forced to pay more as the store for example needs to only stock non-gebraoch items which can cost more making it more difficult for people who dont observe to celebrate Peseach

    #1067511

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    nishtdayngesheft: I’m not sure. I heard it from a few different Rabbonim who I trust, and I’m relying on them that it is true.

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