April 18, 2011 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #596400
Where does the gebruchts debate come from? Who are the earlier authorities that wrote piskei halacha on this issue?April 18, 2011 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #760737
I think the debate stems from the verse in Leviticus 22:14 which states “Thou shalt not eat gebrochts on Passover”April 18, 2011 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #760738Feif UnParticipant
The Gemara in Pesachim talks about soaking Matzah in water, and had no issue with it. Rashi in Brachos (38b) also had no problems with it.
I believe the Shulchan Aruch HaRav mentions the chumrah of not eating gebrochts. It began mainly among chassidim.
R’ Moshe Feinstein held it was not a problem. The Vilna Gaon held that not eating gebrochts took away from simchas Yom Tov, and held that people should not follow the chumrah.April 18, 2011 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #760739aries2756Participant
I don’t know and I bow to the halachic experts on this one. But I did here something today that did disturb me and I thought I would share it with my friends on the CR. I was at the nail salon when I heard some young women speaking. They were speaking about Gebruchts vs. non-gebruchts and how it is just a minhag and one said that she used to go to Gateways and she didn’t hold from non-gebruchts so she put matzah in her soup anyway. So how do people who are makpid on keilim go to hotels for Pesach? I was quite appalled so I joined the conversation and told her that people who wish to broch at a non-gebrochts hotel are supposed to “ask” for plastic dinnerware so they do NOT ruin the keilim for the other guests. THAT is how it is done. One needs to be considerate of the other people. The caterer and the olam that go assumes that the people who choose to go to a non-gebrochts hotel follow the shita of non-gebrochts and respect the minhag vis a vis the dining room and the keilim. It is those who choose NOT to follow the OLAM and majority that are there who need to ask for special accommodations and they will be accommodated.
She looked at me shocked and said “it is NOT my problem” so I told her it certainly was her problem because the assumption is that everyone who comes is following the “rule of the minhag of the caterer” to break the rule is rude and unacceptable and causes problems for the rest of the olam when a problem need not arise and you could be accommodated to do as you wish with disposable keilim.
Her respnse was, why would anyone who brochs understand the minhag of NOT broching? I told her that you learn that in school when you learn the dinim and minhagim of Pesach. That is part of the standard curriculum. Am I crazy? Do they NOT teach this in school? Is it possible that young women and men today to not understand these very important customs? Is it normal that someone will have a meal in someone else’s home and just do as they wish possibly giving someone else a heart attack? I just can’t believe this is true.April 18, 2011 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #760740
The story is told about a number of gedolim of yesteryear that they would put a matzoh ball in their windows throughout pesach to make a statement about what they hold of gebrochtsApril 18, 2011 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #760741His Royal HighnessMember
aries: You were absolutely correct.April 18, 2011 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #760742bombmaniacParticipant
the minhag makes no sense.. what. so. ever.
so you MAY have a problem of chometz IF teh matza isnt baked well enough…besides for teh fact that it is self contradictory. if you REALLY have a chashash chametz then dont do it on the last day. why should achdus matter…why should it matter if its only mid’rabonon…? chametz is chametz and since when do we disregard halachos mid’rabonon?April 18, 2011 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #760743aries2756Participant
I was just so shocked with her attitude. “too bad if someone is makpid keilim, I did what I wanted to. So much for their mashgiach and being non-gebrochts”. Honestly, does she not realize that it is a potch in the face to the people who raised her to have such an attitude? Is this really what they taught her?April 19, 2011 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #760744hello99Participant
bomb: the concern is for flour on or in the matza that was not thoroughly kneaded. The Shulchan Aruch HaRav/Baal HaTanya clearly ate gebrochs himself, but in a later letter mentions that if white powder is found on matzo it may not come in contact with water. The general chumra is a later outgrowth of this teshuva.April 20, 2011 5:12 am at 5:12 am #760745Israeli ChareidiParticipant
The minhag of not eating gebrochts comes from the fact that there is a chance that there is some flour that didn’t get properly kneaded into the dough and got trapped in an air pocket causing it to stay ‘chametzable’ until it reaches the soup. It is a very unlikely scenario which is why the halocho is that we do not need to worry about it. Never the less, throughout the generations there have always been minhagim that certain communities have adopted to display for themselves the seriousness of chametz – even if they didn’t make so much intellectual sense. (e.g. “don’t put that case of chickens on the floor – my mother was always careful to put it on the counter). Many of these minhagim stuck and the poskim always respected them even if they didn’t practice them themselves.
I, personally, eat gebrochts. But alot of time spent in various matzo factories – both hand and machine – has shown me that the possibility of free flour that hasn’t been properly kneaded or exposed to the high heat is much higher than most people think.
In addition – anyone who does put gebrochts in a utensil of someone who is makpid is probably being oiver on gezel.April 21, 2011 1:44 am at 1:44 am #760746
“anyone who does put gebrochts in a utensil of someone who is makpid is probably being oiver on gezel”
They are not oiver on anything.April 21, 2011 1:45 am at 1:45 am #760747
“But alot of time spent in various matzo factories – both hand and machine – has shown me that the possibility of free flour that hasn’t been properly kneaded or exposed to the high heat is much higher than most people think.”
Not according to the g’dolim amd other experts.April 21, 2011 2:09 am at 2:09 am #760748WolfishMusingsParticipant
I eat g’brokts (ah, the benefits of being a ba’al teshuva — I get to pick my own minhagim*), but I’ve got to say that I’m appalled at the selfishness and lack of consideration for others shown by the person in aries’ story.
* Actually, my mother picked the g’brokts/non-g’brokts issue, but same thing…April 21, 2011 2:17 am at 2:17 am #760749shlishiMember
cherrybim: it is according to the g’dolim. and aic is correct that is would be gezeila.April 21, 2011 3:03 am at 3:03 am #760750am yisrael chaiParticipant
Who says she has to understand the minhag at all? Is she so self-absorbed that she cannot hear anyone else’s needs? She exemplifies the “I” generation. It’s all about her. If she doesn’t understand it, then forget everyone else…
It’s no wonder that R Paysach Krohn among others is giving a shiur after Pesach about the I generation. I hope the “lady” in question will be attending.April 21, 2011 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #760751mw13Participant
“the minhag makes no sense.. what. so. ever.”
I wouldn’t go quite that far. I will admit the chashash chometz is a rather small one… however, my father doesn’t eat gebruks, so, no matter how small the chashash, neither do I.
“why should achdus matter…why should it matter if its only mid’rabonon…? chametz is chametz and since when do we disregard halachos mid’rabonon”
Huh? (As in, what does this have to do with achdus and exactly what di’rabanans are being disregarded?)April 21, 2011 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #760752
According to the Gr’a and the vast majority of poskim and rabbonim, g’btochts does nothing to keilim. Shlishi, do you eat chometz on the eighth day of Pesach; I hope not?April 21, 2011 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #760753
Bomb and Patur avul Assur- you two have obviosuly no respect for our Minhagim and our Gedolim. Shame on you.April 22, 2011 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #760755
What have I said that demonstrates a lack of respect for our gedolim?April 22, 2011 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #760756
think the debate stems from the verse in Leviticus 22:14 which states “Thou shalt not eat gebrochts on Passover”
That, in my opinion, is poking fun of the root of a Minhag. Pardon me if you wrote it in extreme innocence.
Also, your story about Gedolim and Matzah ball in their window….
Our Gedolim know to respect Minhagim that OTHER GEDOLIM set, even though they don’t follow that specific minhag.April 23, 2011 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #760757Shticky GuyParticipant
What would the lady in aries’s story say if she was given a plate of soup in that hotel and told that the previous meal a non religious guest had put something into that particular plate of very doubtful kashrus origin? Would she care that the guest when challenged had said ‘it’s not my problem’?
Ps Where do gebruchts get their name from? I assume that because gebruchts means broken in yiddish that it comes from breaking matzo into soup or even coffee. (Yum!).April 24, 2011 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #760758yid.periodMember
IMHO gebruchts are a very different din than regular dinim of kashrut of basar and chalav for example… as in we don’t just keep those dinim every day of the week except Tuesday. However, many if not all of those who do not eat gebruchts DO eat gebruchts on the eighth day of pesach.
It is, no pun intended, a minhag chasidus, as far as I am aware. Someone who eats gebruchts is not (or shohuld not be) looked at as someone who has a disregard for halacha, or even someone who is being meikil. It is just a minhag, and therefore, considering how removed the sharing of keilim would be from the actual moment of “chashash” (and it’s in quotes for a reason) I never thought/ knew there was halachik basis for being makpid on such a thing.
I for one have heard in my shul that sharing keilim from kitniyot to non- kitniyot observers was not even an issue.April 24, 2011 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #760759
“Also, your story about Gedolim and Matzah ball in their window….
Our Gedolim know to respect Minhagim that OTHER GEDOLIM set, even though they don’t follow that specific minhag.”
That was their way of showing that they strongly disagree with the minhag.April 24, 2011 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #760760rav amram gaonMember
to put it sipmly chacham tzvi ashkenazi (father of rav ya’akov emdin ztvllh’h) said its a minhag shtus but minhag yisrael kadosh hu and one should not make fun b/c the beis yosef said not eating kitnos is also a minhag shtus and no ashkenazi eats kitniosApril 24, 2011 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #760761
theres a famous vort that “minhag” is an anagram for “gehennom” . . . v’hameivin yavinApril 24, 2011 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #760762
it’s actually just minhag backwardsApril 24, 2011 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #760763
there are many stories about gedolim doing some extreme things to make a point of disagreement with other gedolim, like the gr”a refusing to meet with the baal hatanyaApril 24, 2011 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #760764
Klach- there’s another saying that “minhag yisroel, TORAH”. I’d rather take the safe side, since my family doesn’t eat Gebrochts.
The point is only, that when someone holds from a Minhag that you don’t, just respect it. Respecting it doesn’t mean following it.April 24, 2011 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #760765Dovid HaMelechMember
klach: It’s the opposite of gehenim.
Rav Akiva Eiger (and others) write, “Minhag Yisroel Torah He”.April 24, 2011 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #760766
smartcookie: it doesn’t mean that one has a responsibility to follow any random minhag out there – it’s only referring to a minhag you/ your family already has in place and you cease to follow it.
Dovid Hamelech: it’s much cooler to associate it with gehenom.
The RAMCHAL writes that gehenom is only one of many, many “goodies” up there awaiting those souls. . .April 24, 2011 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #760767
Klach- no, you don’t have the responsibility to follow Minhagim if your family/Rav doesn’t follow it. But you have a big responsibility to respect the Minhagim of other, and not ridicule and knock them, like some posters here tend to do.April 24, 2011 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #760768
“But you have a big responsibility to respect the Minhagim of other, and not ridicule and knock them, like some posters here tend to do.”
Even if previous gedolim called it a minhag shtus?April 24, 2011 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #760769Dovid HaMelechMember
Even if previous gedolim called it a minhag shtus?
Like the Mechaber calling kitniyos? The Mechaber can and John Doe can’t.April 24, 2011 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #760770
This all becomes academic for most non-gebrochnekers tomorrow night. Hmmm…can’t wait to have my chometz knaidlech.
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