December 5, 2020 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #1926065ujmParticipant
Have any Gedolim owned pets in their home, such as a cat or dog, or otherwise taken a position on the appropriateness or inappropriateness of a Jew having such a pet in their home?December 5, 2020 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #1926080
I don’t think you will find any photos or portraits of a “gadol” with a pet dog, much less a cat or gerbil. Going back to the time of the avos, we know that as shepherds, they more likely than not had herding dogs that were work dogs but not household pets. My recollection from some prior exchanges on the this question is that there are some references in gemorah about prohibitions on keeping dogs that pose a risk of personal injury or property damage to neighbors. I would imagine that in the Alte Heim, the challenges of feeding large families precluded the notion of keeping pets for pleasure (rather than as workdogs or cats to control vermin and pests). Even today, i don’t recall seeing a photo of some gadol or chashuvah rav sitting at his shtender learning with a pet schnauzer at his feet. I’ve also heard some argue that there are inyanim regarding walking a taking care of a dog on shabbos that raise questions. At the other end of the spectrum, there are some ehrliche yidden who treat the petirah of a pet like a member of the family, even to the point of engaging in some kind of “levayah” for Lassie.December 5, 2020 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #1926088☕️coffee addictParticipant
My mashgiach in Miami had a dogDecember 5, 2020 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #1926097DovidBTParticipant
Pesachim 112b suggests that having a cat is protection from snakes.December 6, 2020 1:49 am at 1:49 am #1926108Yserbius123Participant
Rav Shimon Schwab’s son Reb Yosef used to have a dog named Twinkles. His grandchildren would laugh about how when he would visit them, he would sometimes be more excited about petting the dog than seeing his kids.December 6, 2020 1:50 am at 1:50 am #1926110Sam KleinParticipant
Many years ago generations back people would have a security dog to watch their property from burglars and other disturbance a but they weren’t their pets also. They were always outside and it was their full time job for their master.December 6, 2020 7:17 am at 7:17 am #1926158Yankele1Participant
only chareidim are affraid about dogs. A dog is sometimes better then a human being
he he knows exactly who is a mensch and who not.December 6, 2020 9:30 am at 9:30 am #1926210charliehallParticipant
If you don’t have cats you will have mice and rats. My neighborhood is crawling with feral cats. It reminds me of Jerusalem! I have seen one rat in over 11 years. In the Bronx.December 7, 2020 11:08 am at 11:08 am #1926613
Charlie: When I was growing up in Pelham Parkway, there were tons of birds (not just pigeons) especially when you headed up towards Pelham Bay. When I went back a few years ago, not much diversity beyond the pigeons. I suspect the proliferation of feral cats may have some role.December 8, 2020 6:43 am at 6:43 am #1926884ChananiaLParticipant
@GadolHadorah They say feral cats kill billions of birds each year. Not to mention numerous species of Pacific islands flightless bird made extinct by them. I myself have found the remains of several of their victims around my house. If it was up to me any cat not wearing a bell collar would be shot on site.December 8, 2020 11:16 am at 11:16 am #1927005hujuParticipant
To Yserbius 123: Your comment about the gadol who was happier to greet the dog than his grandchildren reminded me that when I and my siblings were adolescents with a dog, he greeted my bubbe more enthusiastically than we did.December 8, 2020 11:20 am at 11:20 am #1927011catch yourselfParticipant
“At the other end of the spectrum, there are some ehrliche yidden who treat the petirah of a pet like a member of the family, even to the point of engaging in some kind of “levayah” for Lassie.”
I don’t question the ehrlichkeit of these people, but they are misguided. You wouldn’t have a funeral for your favorite recliner, no matter how much you loved it. In the same way, no matter how fond you may be of your pet, it is NOT a member of the family. It is not a person with a Neshama, and your relationship with it should be different in kind from your relationship with other people.
וע”ע משניות ברכות פרק ב משנה ז ובמפרשים שםDecember 8, 2020 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #1927166RuggiepoParticipant
Catch yourself, I understand what you are saying. We do have to realize that animals are not humans. That being said, i think it is up to every person to decide for themselves how to make that distinction. We made several funerals for various hamsters, and I think it was a great way to help our children properly express their sadness. No, animals are not a recliner, and allowing a child to speak about and mourn the loss of something loved is definitely appropriate, and healthy, in my eyes. Of course, I wouldn’t say Tehillim at such a funeral….. We have lots of animals including a leopard gecko
, and the only animals not accepted in the charedi world are cats and dogs,,,, go figure!December 8, 2020 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #1927168RuggiepoParticipant
And the question is what does it mean to be mekabel tanchumin, as it says in mishne brachos. Of course anyone would admit that to say kaddish or to sit shiva for a dog is not appropriate….December 8, 2020 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #1927224charliehallParticipant
Feral cats need to be rounded up when they threaten endangered species. But both the pigeons and rats in North America are themselves invasive destructive species not native to the Americas. Cats are about the only thing that works to control rats and peregrine falcons are the only thing other than cats that control pigeons.December 8, 2020 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #1927227
@charlie hall, actually man is the biggest predator of pigeons, squab is delicious.December 8, 2020 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #1927232
Common Saychal: Where can you find pigeon (aka “squab”) with a good chasideshe shechita? The plumba is likely to be larger than the bird?December 8, 2020 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #1927251
Well, I found the answer to my own question.
“….Pelleh Poultry’s award-winning squabs are young King Pigeons, a variety specifically bred for market (not the ones from Central Park) Featuring tender meat with a delicate gamy flavor, the King Pigeon breed is now the most popular squab bird on the market. At four weeks, the birds have achieved adult size but have not yet started to toughen from the exercise of flying. This is the ideal time to prepare them for the table. Pelleh Poultry receives the squabs from their supplier, David King. and are meticulously processed to the highest standards of (OU) kashruth…”
Well, not Chassideshe hashgacha but I guess pigeons may be more of a Litvishe delicacyDecember 8, 2020 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #1927250
Ghatorah: Pellah poultry produces squab with a good chasisisher shechita, they also sell duck [not frozen] and goose.December 9, 2020 12:20 am at 12:20 am #1927255
Ghathotah Pelleh has chasidisher shichita under Rav Dovid MillerDecember 9, 2020 12:21 am at 12:21 am #1927256
CS: Sadly, Pellah is “sold out” of king pigeons (aka squab) but I’ll keep checking to see when it comes back into stock. In the interim, I placed an order for some of their Duck sausage. I also found the story of their firm’s history fascinating moving the farm and production facilities from the Hamptons on LI when the land became too expensive to the site of an abandoned nuclear power plant in Pennsylvania. Two generations of Cornell U vet school grads run the business. Also, only about 1/3 of the products listed on their website are “kosher” so you have to be careful when ordering.December 9, 2020 8:02 am at 8:02 am #1927311
There is a famous picture of Rav Eliahu Lopian feeding the yeshiva’s cat. He explained that if it did its job and got rid of the mice it would have nothing to eat otherwise.
Apparently dog ownership was common among our ancestors as the Torah tells us to give them the meat of treif animals. The Maharal says (חידושי אגדות הוריות יג ע”א ד”ב האוכל) that the dog is a בעל נפש and is called a כלב because he is כולו לב. The Ben Ish Hai in Bnei Yehoyada praises his loyalty. Chazal also praise his characteristic of gratitude.December 9, 2020 8:04 am at 8:04 am #1927333
GH: you must have been on the wrong website, it was more then likely a distributor of Pelleh products, the farm is located in Bethel NY in Sullivan County and is run by a Frum father and son and only deals with Kosher products.
Father himself has a very interesting story, grew up secular and live in Montana for a number of years worked as a park ranger, a logger and number of other none typical jobs, became frum and was a talmud muvak of Rav Shlomo Friefeld ZTL, he built up the farm from scratch.December 9, 2020 9:26 am at 9:26 am #1927356
Common Saychel: You are right. I was on the website of JOE JURGIELEWICZ & SON, LTD., which is a much larger specialty poultry operation which apparently contracts with multiple small farms who license their particular breed of LI ducks and other poultry and Peleh in Swan Lake is one of their suppliers. They advertise the Peleh products on their website exactly the way that Pelleh does but make clear their hashgacha is from OU whereas the Pelleh website is clear that they rely upon Rav Dovid Miller. Not an unusual marketing arrangement but can be confusing.
P.S. The squab product is also “sold out” or otherwise unavailable on the Pelleh website as well so I’ll have to stay with cornish hens for now.December 9, 2020 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #1927388CTLAWYERParticipant
Dogs (and cats)….
I have found ownership by frum people to be more of a city vs. country thing.
I have never not had dogs, neither has Mrs. CTL. Both Born in CT and lived in single family homes with land.
We both have siblings married to people who came from city apartment buildings who never owned dogs, one had a cat.
Currently we have 4 dogs and 2 cats. One dog died of old age last week, We have an area of our grounds under a large apple tree that is our pet cemetery. The dog was buried there (along side about a dozen other dogs and cats). A flagstone was placed over the grave and sometime next spring I’ll scratch his name and date of death into the stone. This was our second teen aged dog to pass in 6 months. Our grandchildren (along with us) miss them very much. They were very important for the children to have while all here since March due to Ciovid,
Here, walking a dog on Shabbos is not an issue, we open the sliders to one side of our yard and the dogs have a half acre of fence land to run, play and do their business. No walking around with bags and pooper scoopers, just natural fertilizer for their grass play area.
Our shul Rav has two dogs. I don’t know many non-elderly shul members in town without dogs.
That said, If I lived in a high rise apartment building and had to take dogs out for a walk multiple times a day, I doubt I’d own dogs.
Cats, OTOH are lo maintenance. ours are inside cats, never go outside, but do control the field mice problem in the house. With a home more than 200 years old and a stone foundation we do get mice when the weather turns cold, so we have a downstairs cat and an upstairs cat for pest controlDecember 9, 2020 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #1927467
I have heard of people using minks for pest controlDecember 9, 2020 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #1927472
Common Saychel: Minks reportedly don’t make good streimlach and as reported yesterday in the NY Post, there have been numerous Covid outbreaks traced to mink farms. The only positive I can think of is to agrivate the PETA types in the neighborhood.December 11, 2020 12:40 am at 12:40 am #1927766thegabeParticipant
ayin kesubos Mem aleph amud beisDecember 12, 2020 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #1927928
According to Agnon the streimel was a decree from the authorities. They thought that it was degrading to the Jews to wear the fur of a tamei animal.December 13, 2020 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #1928303
Avi K: Have you ever smelled a really wet mink streimel close up??December 14, 2020 8:34 am at 8:34 am #1928361
Dor, no. Have you? Getting back to pets, Rav Eliezer Melamed says is very much in favor of giving them to children as they learn responsibility and mercy. He adds that they are very good for lonely people, especially the elderly. Pet therapy, in fact, is becoming very common.December 14, 2020 10:23 am at 10:23 am #1928400
@Gadol, I was going to use cornish hens but the taste is nothing like squab, I found a goose at the meat market [ btw from Pelleh] and use that instead for Shabbos ChanukahDecember 16, 2020 8:11 am at 8:11 am #1929024
Common, I think that you mean Cornish hens. If you write it with a small “c” you re saying that they are similar to corn.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.