December 5, 2012 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #607274shmoelMember
What is the specific halachic source?December 6, 2012 2:37 am at 2:37 am #911248farrocksMember
Chillul Hashem. Nothing else that I know of.December 6, 2012 2:47 am at 2:47 am #911249
It may even be worse than stealing from a Yid; see Hoshen Mishpat 348:2; Kitzur S”A 182:1 and the Ben Ish Hai on Ki Tetze.
The Tosefta, Bava Kamma 10, says that if a yid cheats or steals from a goy and is murdered, his death provides no kappara because of the hillul HaShem and damage the yid caused.December 6, 2012 3:31 am at 3:31 am #911250frumnotyeshivishParticipant
Isn’t Darkei Shalom brought down as the main reason?December 6, 2012 7:37 am at 7:37 am #911251
When people believe that treating all of G-d’s children with equity and in a just manner is a function of good PR or should only be done for our own self-gain, I am deeply turned off and offended.
These sorts of explanations also bothered Rav Soloveitchik and Rav AS Rosenthal and Professor Yeshayahu Leibowitz, among other hakhamim, and I am also bothered by these explanations.
We are duty-bound to treat all people with fairness, kindness, and justice. It is essential to read Talmudic and halakhic texts on gentiles in a manner consonant with our own social and political metziut, not the metziut of yesteryear, which generated racist attitudes in many cases. I recommend reading the writings of Rav Dov Linzer on this.December 6, 2012 12:31 pm at 12:31 pm #911252HaKatanParticipant
rebdoniel, it is not merely “good PR and for our gain”.
What you are stating is that our holy sages of yester-year were primitive and unenlightened, and Rav Dov Linzer knows better. This would be funny if it weren’t so sad and exactly opposite of what mesorah tells us.
Your latter remarks, however, that one should act “in consonance with our own social and political metziut” does not contradict this insofar as the specifications of Darkei Shalom apply. This, indeed, may “make us duty-bound to treat all people fairness, kindness and justice”, but only because of the applicability of darkei shalom, whatever exactly that means, not because of some ultra-MO “modernity” trumping the Torah, CH”V.
Your terribly misguided mistake remains, therefore, if you think that Linzer is more moral/enlightened than, lihavdil, Rava and Abaye.December 6, 2012 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #911253
Rabbi Akiva says the root of the Torah is the Golden Rule, stated negatively — what is hateful to you, don’t do to your neighbor. Rabbi Hillel says the same thing but positively — love your fellow as your self. The Gemara also stresses the importance of emulating G-d’s positive character traits, such as being compassionate toward others. To paraphrase the Gemara, just as Hashem is gracious and merciful, so should you be gracious and merciful, bestowing free gifts to all. Just as Hashem is compassionate towards all creatures, we should be as well.
The book Compassion for Humanity in the Jewish Tradition, by fascinating chassidic author Rabbi Dovid Sears, is a good place to look for sources on this and similar topics. For example, the author of the Sefer HaBris, Rabbi Pinchas Eliyahu of Vilna, actually argues at length that love-your-fellow-as-yourself applies to non-Jews.December 6, 2012 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #911254farrocksMember
Your fellow, basin love your fellow, refers only to yehudim.December 6, 2012 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #911255WolfishMusingsParticipant
I find it completely incredible that there are people on this board who are ready to say that I lack derech eretz for eating a sandwich with my hands, but when it comes to breaking into someone else’s house and robbing him blind, they have absolutely no moral qualms whatsoever (other than the consequences of possibly being caught).
The WolfDecember 6, 2012 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #911256old manParticipant
The source for the prohibition is your conscience. If it doesn’t belong to you, don’t take it. End of discussion.December 6, 2012 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #911257frummy in the tummyParticipant
rebdoniel – agreed. It’s important to know and respect the teachings of the scholars of the past, but it is even more important to use one’s own judgement to determine a correct outlook and a correct course of action. After all, whose judgement was used to decide to respect those scholars’s teachings in the first place?December 6, 2012 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #911258ZeesKiteParticipant
‘scuse me people, we say in Havdalah evey week, bein Yisroel l’amim.
We mean it.
HaShem says in his Torah ?????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??. It bothers you so much? Shows that the secular outside venom against the Torah and Followers have seeped into you. Sorry, I like my fellow Jew, because he is a Jew, HaShem commanded me to. I get along with my neighbors, indeed I smile to them and say a good word, because of darkei shalom. To equate a Yid with an aino yehudi, shows one is totally lacking in the understanding of a Yid. It shows how far the secular call made impact on the inner Jew.
Read what Rabbi Miller says, over and over again on this very topic.December 6, 2012 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #911259
That sefer sounds like a very good read, yytz.
Rav Soloveitchik, zatzal, was very troubled by those who say that we only violate shabbat to save a gentile’s life mishum eivah. It should also bother anyone who believes that all people are made b’tzelem elokim.
Being victimized doesn’t give us license to become victimizers.
Recall the Midrash regarding the malachim and the Egyptians.December 6, 2012 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #911260WhiteberryMember
Why would someone want to condition himself to act in a dishonest manner. Even if darkei shalom did not exist in a particular circumstance, why would you want to steal from or deceive someone.
The “golden rule” is a distortion of hillels statement (as are most xtian concepts), not the other way around.December 6, 2012 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #911261
The notion of inherent Jewish racial superiority in the Maharal and Kuzari and Tanya have resulted in a bit of harm.
Read what R’ Weinberg, the Seridei Esh, says on these ideas.December 6, 2012 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #911262shmendrickMember
I note that the title of this thread is “Geneivas Akum”. Akum is R”T: oved cochovim u’mazolos (an idol worshiper) who is chayev missah for transgressing on the 7 mitzvos of a Ben Noach. He or she is not “merely” stam a goy but one who ought to be put to death and one who has forfeited his or her right to exist.
That is who we are discussing!! Forget the “b’tzelem elokim” and desire to save such a person’s life by violating the shabbos!!
If Torah has no “rachmonus” on this akum’s life, where do you get the sympathy for his property?! (Other than darchei sholom and ayva – OUR benefit, rather than his).December 7, 2012 12:28 am at 12:28 am #911264TheGoqParticipant
The Wolf + 1,000,000December 7, 2012 12:40 am at 12:40 am #911265MeemaYehudisMember
I think that Geneivas Akum is terrible. To offer a cleaning lady more money in order to take her away from the people for whom she works a whole year, especially before Pesach, is Geneivas Akum at it’s worst!!!December 7, 2012 1:01 am at 1:01 am #911266KozovMember
rebdoniel, rampant anti-semitism and self-justifying insincere Judaism has resulted in quite a bit of harm. That characteristically goes hand in hand with misconstruing the words of our sages. If you don’t take care to have the common decency to give them the benefit of the doubt with openminded inquisitiveness, then you are the one taking part in the harm by so easily following the belligerent. You may even surprise yourself and find that their opinions match perfectly with your consciense. It seems you have already had your earful of the outside rhetoric.
Let us just consider the coherence of what you said. You said the notion caused harm, but you didn’t say whether or not the notion was untrue or counterintuitive (And you are going to point out to me where to read in the Sridei Eish). Now let us consider the subject of the R’ Yehuda Halevi, Maharal, and the Baal Hatanya’s studies. I’m sure they learned, for just one example, Bava Metziah 85:1 numerous times, where R’ Yehuda Hanasi gets punished for not comforting an animal properly.
So, though it’s true we can never stress enough compassionate behavior to everyone, it would be a big stretch to say or even give off the impression that great Rabbis were guilty of such things. In the end we must say, we must study their words in more depth and hopefully come to a more agreeable understanding of what they are saying.December 7, 2012 2:02 am at 2:02 am #911267
RebDoniel, much of the sefer can be read for free on Google Books.
Whiteberry, let’s forget about Hillel for a second. What about Rabbi Akiva? If we truly believe that the root of the Torah is, what is hateful to you, don’t do to others, then isn’t it obvious why we shouldn’t harm any non-Jew? Because if we always put ourselves in others’ shoes and empathize with them, we will treat all of G-d’s creatures with respect and compassion, thus emulating Hashem’s traits, just as Chazal repeatedly emplore us to do.
Farrocks, I’m aware of that interpretation. There are others. See Sefer HaBris. Whether it’s meant as halacha or homiletics, it’s worth reading.
A nice quote from Ramak’s Tomer Devorah: One “should be a father to all the creatures of the Holy One, Blessed is He, and to
Israel in particular… And he should constantly pray for mercy and blessing for the world just as the Supernal Father has mercy on all His creatures. And he should constantly pray for the alleviation of suffering as if those who suffer were actually his children and as if he had created them.” Of course, we have a special love for fellow Jews, but that does not mean we should not be compassionate toward non-Jews as well.December 7, 2012 2:13 am at 2:13 am #911268
See also Chapters 16 (Love) and 17 (Compassion) of Horeb by Rav S.R. Hirsh. Beautiful, very universalistic teachings.December 7, 2012 3:32 am at 3:32 am #911269yitzchokmParticipant
at what point do we convert to islam? when we look at the world, “consonant with our own social and political metziut” we should realize that islam is the way to go.
I know its absurd. but so is to think that our mesora is somewhat wrong because they where racists.
My feelings about the MO movement is well known to the coffee room. To those who want to understand why my feelings are the way they are, read what rebdoniel espouses. His view is consistent with the MO movement.December 7, 2012 5:30 am at 5:30 am #911270frumnotyeshivishParticipant
I’m not sure what is offending people here. The law states that theft is prohibited from all. All agree. The question is one of sources, with few practical differences.
rebdoniel – keeping shabbos cannot be “victimizing” unless the master of the world said not to. I’m sure Rav Solovetchik had a source for this. You should argue his position on its merits. Additionally, when great men write holy words, they NEVER cause harm. All is from Hashem.December 7, 2012 5:52 am at 5:52 am #911271ZeesKiteParticipant
AGAIN… Read what the Torah says. PLAIN. No works, essays, derushim, perushim. See what the Torah says, Neveim, Ksuvim, Chazal. All over.
Of course it has resulted in a bit of harm. That’s another reason we fast on asara bteves, someone unworthy got hold of our Holy Torah. That’s why the sensors were so busy. So now we must “explain” it on a more “delicate” way – FOR THEM. But the Torah truths remain unadulterated. Sorry here for anyone who cannot face the truth.December 7, 2012 10:43 am at 10:43 am #911273ItcheSrulikMember
Rabbi Sacks has a book in which he proves from Chazal that “darkei shalom” does not mean “what will the goyim think of us” but to actually make a more peaceful society where people care about each other, don’t steal, feed the hungry, heal the sick, etc.
It always shocks me every time I see people on this forum and elsewhere who get outraged every time someone dares to suggest that being a good person is a good thing. I shouldn’t be surprised, but for some reason I still am. The best is when people respond with “so-and-so says it isn’t a chiyuv.” If I cherrypicked heterim like that for shabbos and kashrus, would you eat in my house? If I checked your tefillin based on that method, would you make a bracha on them?December 7, 2012 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #911274WhiteberryMember
Zeeskite. Regarding your most recent comment…Your point is?December 7, 2012 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #911275
Of course, I am proudly Modern Orthodox, and I believe that our approach is the correct one, espoused by Hazal, Rambam, Rasag, the Gra, Rav Hirsch, Rav Weinberg, Rav Soloveitchik, Rav Angel, Rav Berman, Rav Riskin, and scores of other gedolim.
And I very much appreciate yytz’s postings, as well as all reasonable postings above.
If my “Crimes” should be placing a value on the arts and sciences, loving all people, Jew and Non-Jew alike, working to heal the world of injustices, making a place for women within Jewish life and learning, espousing a moderate approach to halakha fully in line with the texts, and loving gerim, protecting children from pedophiles, defending scientific logic and fact, and calling out injustice and poor readings and misunderstandings of rabbinic texts, all of which abound in the reconstructed, polemical reactionary world of Haredism, than let me stand accused. I stand on the shoulders of giants, including Hhazal, the Gra, the Rambam, and all of the gedolim I mentioned above.December 7, 2012 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #911277HaLeiViParticipant
By the way, we don’t just help Hashem’s children. We should help goyim, too.December 7, 2012 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #911278frummy in the tummyParticipant
The norm of today is not Islam, nor is it any other particular religion, view, or belief. The norm is knowledge and acceptance. The minute you believe in your own superiority is the minute you are no longer so. The only thing of merit in this world is action, not a belief, and not the beliefs of your ancestors.
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