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  • #1796710

    Avi K
    Participant

    I have read about a number of cases where people nonchalantly wrote compositions for Beit Yaakov girls. How do they justify this?

    #1796745

    Joseph
    Participant

    Who would a BY girl need to write a composition for?

    #1796746

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Well…
    If it’s the same people who return their air conditioner to Walmart at the end of the season,
    If it’s the same people who pretend that their children are young enough to get the cheaper rate at attractions,
    If it’s the same people who perpetrate any number of other types of geneivas da’as and/or geneiva,
    Why are you surprised?

    #1796910

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Reb Yosef: For the same reason a Torah V’Daas boy would have to learn how to communicate his thoughts in the English language. Of course, you can offer us Troll theme No. 3,231 version 3.07 asserting why a girl shouldn’t be educated, should remain at home to the maximum extent and avoid and PDI (public display of intelligence).

    #1796938

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Re: ” who would a BY girl need to write a composition for? ”

    She wouldn’t… and shouldn’t. But if you’re a guy , it’s good to have a girl’s name like “Miriam” in your hip pocket to post on YWN & Zelda’s Coffee Room when need arises… Shana Tova Joseph… A gitt kvitel , my friend.

    #1796963

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I have read about a number of cases where people nonchalantly wrote compositions for Beit Yaakov girls. How do they justify this?

    Have you ever read it about anybody else?

    #1796965

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    There is unfortunately an incredible level of cheating and plagiarism in the educational system as evidenced by the recent prosecution and guilty pleas of dozens of parents who in some cases paid hundreds of thousand of dollars to “consultants” to get their kids into college. Anyone in NYC knows the stories about bribes paid to get their babies into prestigious pre-school programs. You can go online and google the terms “term papers”, “compositions” “essays” etc. and you will find multiple offers to write them for you for a modest “fee”. Parents “help” their kids with essays on college applications or purchase a pre-drafted essay online.

    The good news is that schools are now using sophisticated software to detect such cheating by comparing it to tens of millions of other documents already online or flagging writing patterns that seem different form other samples of the individual’s writings.

    #1796971

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Avi k
    Can you explain to me the issue?
    What’s wrong?
    Is the school not aware that you can ask someone for “help ”
    Do they have safeguards in place or not?
    If they want to they could easily have the girls write the essay in the school office during the entrance exam.
    Obviously they don’t care.
    It’s not even an unfair advantage, because everyone else can do it too. When kids in first or second grade are coming in with typed book reports with professional type covers, do the teachers think they did it themselves???
    It’s known and accepted in the school world that an. Assignment given to be done at home has a good chance of being done by a proxy.
    So what exactly is the issue, that you need defended??

    #1796973

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Ky – i can’t believe a frum yid could say that. Really? Is that the value system of the community you live in? Is that the sheker you are raising your children with? What a pity. What a busha.

    #1796978

    Avi K
    Participant

    K, are you serious?
    1. I wrote this in the hope of waking up some people.
    2. You obviously do not know how schools operate. During the course of the year students are called upon to write essays, book reports, etc. Would you suggest that a basketball team throw the ball in the net a few times before the game too prevent fouls? Would you say that the other team can also commit fouls so there is no advantage?
    3. The question is not the student’s class standing but her (and this goes for him too) but the student’s performance on his/her own.
    4. There is a difference between typing something that the student wrote and writing it. This should be obvious.
    5. If it is known there will be a vicious circle of cheating and assumption of cheating. An “80” will be looked at as a “70” so kids will hire “90” writers. This will become evident and a “90” will become a “70”. Eventually the diploma will be considered worthless. This already happens in some tax audits. The auditor realizes that people hide 10% so he jacks up the estimate 10%. People then hide 20% so he jacks it up 20%. The IRS will not accept income statements from some sources and simply disallows benefits.

    #1796981

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Syag
    That’s not really a response to what I said, but I’ll ask you this
    When the school gives the students an assignment to be done in a language they neither speak nor understand, what do they really think is going on behind the scenes??
    Or is your opinion that the teachers and principals of our children’s schools are so stupid that they never realized what I am saying?
    Again
    When children too young to type are submitting typewritten assignments (sometimes mandated by the school) what do the teachers who are giving these children high marks for those assignments think took place.
    Don’t shoot the messenger.
    I try to teach my children what is really important and correct.

    #1796982

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Avi
    Not sure what your whole post equals
    If the student is not capable they will flunk
    If the teacher round up (which many do) they will pass
    If everyone is cheating their way through, then it’s a broken system and it’s stupid to keep it going that way. If a non participatory student who can’t answer a question in class is submitting a grade essays, and the teacher lets that through, it’s time for a new teacher.
    I thought you were asking about entrance exam essays

    Realize, it’s not like you have a possession, that if I take it I’m stealing. Here it’s arbitrary. If a school /teacher decides they want you to submit an essay, and they give it in a way that easily allows cheating, and they know it’s happening, and they accept it, then it’s not cheating!! They are in charge of creating the rules. If they allow it then it’s OK

    #1797168

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    ky – you sound like a 10 year old trying to justify shoplifting. I’m sorry if your community lives by such standards to the point that you can’t even hear your own words. and your next post is even worse:
    Here it’s arbitrary. If a school /teacher decides they want you to submit an essay, and they give it in a way that easily allows cheating, and they know it’s happening, and they accept it, then it’s not cheating!!

    that one is so wrong that even a 10 year old wouldn’t fall for it. in fact i can hardly believe an adult can think that way. Rationalizing sheker is probably worse than sheker itself. darn shame.

    #1797246

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Syag
    I hear your indignation loud and clear
    Unfortunately indignation Is not a rational position. It just means you are passionate that you are correct.
    That’s beautiful.
    But it’s not going to convince me. I’m fact it’s not even giving me anything to think about to see if maybe In fact I am incorrect.
    It’s more like a signal that it’s a difficult position to defend
    In the words of Ronald Reagan
    “weak point – scream “

    #1797271

    1
    Participant

    CY, returning an A/C isn’t stealing. It’s store policy.

    #1797289

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Ky – is that your response to all halachas you don’t like or just the ones everyone else is doing too?

    #1797315

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Neither
    Why would you think that

    #1797316

    Reb Yid 613
    Participant

    Klugeryid: Obviously you are not as klug as you state you are since I bet you do not own a shop, since if you did you would probably say that returning the A/C is shoplifting mamish.
    Don’t be a tzadik on others back.
    Stand in their shoes

    #1797348

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    1 Purchasing an item with the intent of using and deriving value from it and then returning it is mamash ganavah since the value or the returned item for the storekeeper has been substantially reduced but then again, you will say that is the store’s tough luck since their return policy didn’t explicitly prohibit such returns. Some expect yidden to act morally but I suspect your were a big fan of Bernie Madoff and the others who believe it is an obligation of yidden to push the boundaries of unethical behavior.

    #1797412

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Reb yid 613
    Your attacking the wrong person. Kind of makes you look foolish and not so klug yourself there.
    I have nothing to do with the returning air conditioners part of this whole discussion
    So feel free to keep attacking but if you want to sound smart try to keep your comment relevant.

    #1797415

    klugeryid
    Participant

    G h
    Walmart dumps returned merchandise regardless of condition.
    Once you open the box, and sometimes even if you didn’t,
    The item never makes it back onto the shelf. It’s donated or more often thrown out.
    So it’s hard to hear an issue based on loss of value to Walmart.
    There may be other reasons why it’s forbidden but your going down the wrong path

    #1797429

    Avi K
    Participant

    1. I agree that if everyone cheats the system is broken. It is not teaching basic integrity.
    2. It is not uncommon for someone who has stage fright when asked a question will be able to wrote something good.
    3, Actually many teachers mark on a curve so if everyone turns in a great essay everyone will receive an average grade. including those who did not cheat. Thus honesty is punished and dishonesty is rewarded.

    #1797428

    Avi K
    Participant

    K, actually it is the opposite. If they could get the same price from another customer there would be no loss of value. Being that they can’t there is a loss of value.

    #1797439

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Syag
    Can I assume you are putting together a cogent rational response?
    Or is your whole opinion just the strength of your conviction?

    #1797437

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Avi
    The value is lost the moment you open the box and perhaps even the moment you pay for the item.
    (yes I know of a specific instance where someone realized after paying that they bought the wrong model, they went straight to return it. The clerk started to open the box. The person said “don’t open it. I just bought it a minute ago here’s my receipt. They said we need to check. They opened it took it all out then threw it into the returns with all the other used / unused /broken items)
    So you take nothing from them by using the item. It’s the same to them if you return it sealed as if you return it used

    #1797443

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Syag
    Can I assume you are putting together a cogent rational response?

    Absolutely

    #1797716

    klugeryid
    Participant

    ??

    #1797720

    Amil Zola
    Participant

    KY-‘When the school gives the students an assignment to be done in a language they neither speak nor understand, what do they really think is going on behind the scenes??’ Why in the world would they do that? What could the teachers motivation possibly be?

    #1797743

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “Walmart dumps returned merchandise regardless of condition.
    Once you open the box, and sometimes even if you didn’t,”

    I’m fairly certain that isn’t true.

    #1797744

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “Why in the world would they do that? What could the teachers motivation possibly be? ”

    Don’t believe everything though read online

    #1797749

    Joseph
    Participant

    That’s usually the case with food products returned at chain stores; they’ll dump the food even if it was unopened. Opened non-food items will generally be monetized (i.e. selling it in bulk) for whatever reduced value the return has.

    #1797755

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    It may be the case for food items but returned items are often (at some stores) repackaged, resealed, and put right back on the shelf. When the shelf is empty except for the boxes that were obviously retaped, they mark it down as a sale price. It will go on clearance if it is mangled. On occassion it gets donated in bulk as a tax write off. Seeing it placed in a cart with broken items does not imply they throw it out.

    #1797775

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Amil you ask a good question. I don’t have a good answer. But that is the reality.
    Most girls high schools in Brooklyn teach at least some (and some all) classes exclusively in Hebrew.
    Most ninth grade girls do not speak Hebrew.
    Yet the tradition continues.
    Why?
    I do not know. Go ask your dad. (Dr Seuss for the purists here)

    #1797776

    Avi K
    Participant

    KY,
    1. The teachers are not in charge of the school rules. The board is in charge. The teachers are salaried employees/ If they are lax they are פושע בשליחות. In any case, grade inflation and/or lax standards are noticed. A 90 from an elite academic school is not viewed the same as a 90 from even an average school. There is also the question of the values being inculcated. Are these kids going to try to cheat their way through life?
    2. A language they neither speak nor understand? How are they going to get along in life if they cannot put together something coherent in the language of the country. If you are referring to a foreign language class, the teacher obviously does not demand the level of a native speaker.
    3. The point is that you used it. You took something without paying for it.

    #1797835

    klugeryid
    Participant

    AvI
    You obviously never send a daughter to a Brooklyn high school
    .
    Telling me the teachers are not in charge is passing the buck
    And I never said anything to indicate I thought they are אחראי
    For creating the current system
    But they Are aware of it.
    As I wrote in talking about English speakers being asked to do work in Hebrew.
    Not sure where your comment about getting Along in their host country

    As to Walmart
    I said there may be plenty of good reasons you are not allowed to do it (my rav told me he holds it’s straight genaivah ) just saying that the argument that by returning it used after a summer downgrades it’s value and therefore you are stealing from Walmart, is factually incorrect.
    It may be so that IF ultimately it is given to someone that entity receives less value, but they did not own it at the time you took it so you owe them nothing and Walmart, contrary to the opinions expressed here, does not put most of the returned items back on the shelf

    #1797938

    Avi K
    Participant

    KY, if they are studying Hebrew they should be able to write something in Hebrew. How good it will be will depend on their language skills, work ethic and attitude. In any case, if someone cannot do it he deserves a failing grade. The teachers can take into account the assignment being too easy or hard by grading on a curve. It also does not matter if they know or even approve. That just makes them co-conspirators in fooling others who look at their transcripts. Why not just forget the whole thing and give everyone an “A”?

    #1797947

    Amil Zola
    Participant

    Well KY it sounds like a rip off pure and simple. I’m a product of a very healthy and well regarded public school system and frankly I wouldn’t pay a dime for the type of education you are exampling no less $10K+ per year.

    #1797977

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Amil
    What are you referring to when you say
    “I’m exampling “?

    #1797978

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Avi k
    They are not studying Hebrew
    They are being taught other subjects in Hebrew language

    #1798112

    Avi K
    Participant

    K, what other subjects? Torah? If so it should be easier for them to use Hebrew as many terms require specialized knowledge of English to translate. For example, when we say that someone bought a field for פירות we mean what in English is called “usufruct”. How many native English speakers know that word? In any case, as I wrote, if the project is overly difficult grading on a curve will correct it.

    #1798115

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Avi, sorry I totally lost you there
    I know Hebrew
    I know English
    I know what it means to buy a field for פירות
    I never heard that word
    And by the way
    If that were the only way to translate it, and nobody knows that word, it doesn’t help to say it in a different language That they don’t know. If they speak English and that’s the English for פירות and they don’t know that word, to keep calling it פירות does not make it any more understandable.

    Regardless.
    You are way off topic.
    You asked what can be a rational for writing an essay for someone else
    I am telling you that since it’s clear that it’s rampant and the school obviously doesn’t care , because they don’t even try to stop it, and the only reason to do it in the first place is because those same people who accept these obviously cheated essays asked for them, so that is tacit approval that you can do it. So what is wrong??

    #1798204

    Avi K
    Participant

    K, so why do they give these assignments? Why not a class project? Obviously they do care. Moreover, the grades these kids get will be used by admissions committees in higher education. Furthermore, it is bad chinuch as the kids learn to cheat.

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