George Zimmerman is not innocent

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    now he is innocent


    The jury thought otherwise, though he can still be sued for wrongful death (lower standard of proof and Zimmerman would have to prove he acted in self-defense, rather than the prosecution having to prove he didn’t – and Zimmerman would have to testify).


    Zimmerman was not found “innocent.” He was found “not guilty.” There is a distinction. The prosecution did not prove its case. It’s sad that a young person lost his life, but he still was on top of Zimmerman bangin Z’s head into the ground, when he was shot. That has to mean something.


    We have commenced Sefer Devorim today, and in 5 weeks time [already 4 weeks at Mincho] shall be reading about the Ben Sorer uMoreh:-

    The longer Trayvon would have been around, the more Aveiros he would have accumulated, so albeit it is too bad that he only spent 17 years in this world, but the less time, the fewer Aveiros that he shall have to answer for in the next world.


    akuperma -“though he can still be sued for wrongful death”

    Al Sharptongue already stated they will sue and he probably will get his friend the Pres to bring Federal civil rights charges.



    You wrote: “Everyone, I mean every SINGLE person, can benefit from therapy.”

    I profoundly disagree with this statement. But more importantly I am curious, what makes you believe the above to be true (it’s obviously impossible to know that to be true)?


    147: That’s a nice thing to say.

    How do you know? Do you give up on everyone (else) before they even start?


    Therapy is a term that needs to be defined.

    Some people who suffer from psychopathologies do need CBT and other clinical interventions in order to manage symptoms and negative behaviors. Many of us even apply CBT principles on a daily basis in our own lives without knowing it (we reward ourselves for doing favorable things and withhold rewards for others, especially among kids).

    All people can benefit from spiritual direction. This is where Humanistic and Transpersonal and Existential Psychology come into play. Think Maslow, Erich Fromm, Viktor Frankl, Norman Vincent Peale, Abraham Joshua Heschel, Rav Shlomo Carlebach, etc. The psychology of Being These were concepts which largely were predated by the mekubalim, the Hasidic masters, and the Baalei haMussar (Much of Freudian thought regarding unconscious desires and drives was explicated earlier on by R’ Yisrael Salanter and others). People can benefit from having a “mashpia” of sorts. Someone objective who can enable individuals actualize their goals, identify and manage obstacles to growth, avodat HaShem, interpersonal relationships, etc. The great mashgichot in the yeshivos were masters at this, and there are many qualified, very spiritual, professional rabbanim who drink from the wisdom of both Humanistic/Transpersonal psychology (many have LCSW’s or psychology degrees), as well as Mussar, Kabbalah, and Hasidut. I know of a rebbi at Stern College who is studying Psychoanalysis. The ability to counsel is very important in the rabbinate. Hasidim predated the modern pastoral couseling movement by many decades, and they knew that people need someone to develop a soul connection with for advice, unconditional friendship, acceptance, and love.


    Since I didn’t watch the entire trial, nor read the jury instructions, I will refrain from judgement except to remind everyone that reasonable doubt is sufficient for acquittal.

    Zimmerman could still face federal civil rights charges and civil litigation.


    If all jewishfeminist meant by “therapy” was having a close relationship with someone and/or having a “mashpia” then I take back my comment.


    so many lawyers in this group, truly amazing. The American justice system has prevailed according to the letter of the law. Why all the fuss?


    I think she was referring to actual psychotherapy with someone who gets $100 an hour for dispensing advice.


    It’s not just “dispensing advice”. It’s having an objective ear. Everyone needs someone to talk to, and while talking with loved ones is nice, often they are nogeiah b’davar. (I once dated a guy who would ask me after every therapy session what my therapist had said. He even stayed in the room once while I was on the phone with her, completely defeating the purpose of the therapy.)

    And by the way, if you have insurance, you aren’t paying $100 an hour.


    I doubt there was any significant mental illness ensuing from such an offense, certainly none more than what existed prior to that.

    Many doctors and therapists aren’t taking insurance anymore, especially since many insurace providers don’t want to cover the cost of therapy (psychopharmacology is much cheaper, and in many cases, is necessary). It is very difficult to get insurance providers to cover psychoanalysis, for instance, which requires many hours, often for the patient’s entire life in order for a breakthrough to occur.


    No, it didn’t “cause mental illness” (and no, I have not been diagnosed with any mental illness, and no, you don’t need to have a diagnosis in order to benefit from therapy) but it should be obvious that this person was an obstacle to my getting what I needed to out of the therapy. If therapy is not completely private and confidential, it does nothing.

    There are still many, many therapists out there who accept insurance plans (and most insurance plans do cover therapy, usually with a deductible). There are also therapists who offer sliding-scale payment plans, and clinics that will offer low-cost therapy if you meet income requirements. Your local Jewish Federation or Jewish Family Services is also a good resource for low cost and/or sliding scale therapy.

    There is a BIG difference between seeing a psychologist and a psychiatrist. While everyone can benefit from seeing a psychologist, most people do not need to see a psychiatrist. Unless you have been diagnosed with a mental illness, you do not need to be on medication. It shouldn’t have to be a one or the other decision. If you need both, see both. One is not a substitute for the other, and it shouldn’t matter which one is cheaper (btw, I have a hard time believing that psychiatrists are cheaper, but whatever).

    Finally, therapy is not about “breakthroughs”. There is a widespread, and ill-informed, presumption out there that therapy is all about lying on a couch having some old man tell you that it’s all about your mother. Therapy does not have to involve (and usually doesn’t involve) dramatic revelations. The truth is far more boring. It’s all about ordinary, everyday stress management, relationship counseling, etc.


    It’s more profitable for insurance companies to have Reuven talk to a psychiatrist for 10-15 minutes every month or two for medication management than to have Reuven talk to the therapist for 50 minute sessions every week.

    For those of the psychoanalytic school (if I were to become a therapist, or a clinical psychologist, I’d be interested in Freudian modalities; I already completed some graduate coursework in counseling psychology), therapy does involve lying on the couch, and according to Object Relations (see Otto Kerner), the role of the mother and father do matter.


    rd -“I’d be interested in Freudian modalities”

    A lot of Rabbonim used to say it was Ossur to become a Shrink or to go to one. And this was because they learnt and practiced Freud. Nowadays, in general, very few only focus on psychoanalysis, most do CBT to get good results.


    Health I’m not aware of any friendship between Al Sharpton and the President where do you get this from? do you assume just because they are both black men that they have the same point of view that’s rather close minded and somewhat racist am I wrong?


    Freud met with the Lubavitcher Rebbe of his time, and many of his ideas have parallels in Mussar.


    Every month, yes, but for 10-15 minutes? More like an hour. And while it is recommended that one see a therapist weekly, not everyone has the time for that. Better to do it every other week or every month– or even as needed– than not at all.


    Plus, psychiatrists are medical doctors, while some psychologists only have an MSW or a LCSW, so they charge less.


    to jewishfeminist02

    that’s not true only social workers have LCSW it stands for






    I know what LCSW stands for. A “therapist” can be a psychologist or a social worker, and a psychologist can have a social work degree. The two are not mutually exclusive.


    Nope. A clinical psychologist is someone with a PhD or PsyD in Clinical Psychology.

    An LCSW is not a psychologist, but with an LCSW-R designation (in NYC at least), they can do psychotherapy. If someone with an LCSW (MSW) decided to get a doctorate in clinical psychology, they’d no longer be practicing as a social worker, but as a psychologist.

    A psychotherapist is not a psychologist, although the function is typically the same.

    And it is typical for a medication management visit to last no more than 15 minutes.


    rd -“Freud met with the Lubavitcher Rebbe of his time, and many of his ideas have parallels in Mussar.”

    While they say his idea of ego, superego, id came from the two Yetzers and the Neshoma -so you’re probably correct that stuff he wrote was based on the Torah. But the Rabbonim were against psychology because of him because I’m pretty sure they held he was close, but not close enough, and his stuff was Apikorsis.

    Thank goodness most psychology is Not based on him anymore, otherwise Frum people couldn’t study psychology, or become Shrinks and Frum people wouldn’t be able to go to Shrinks.


    Are you now a PC liberal? Am I going to have to defend every post I make after Zim’s acquittal – that I’m not a racist – to the PC lib Storm-troopers?

    Since this is the first time you ever accused me of anything -I’ll respond.

    First of all, Sharpton has been to the White House at least twice.

    Second of all, e/o in the News says it and here is an example:

    “(CNN) — U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder’s decision to speak at an annual convention of the Rev. Al Sharpton’s group, in which Trayvon Martin was a key issue, has been widely panned as a political ploy.

    But maybe, just maybe, it’s also evidence that the tamer version of the civil rights leader that we’ve seen in recent years — the syndicated radio host, the MSNBC personality, the White House adviser — is enjoying broader legitimacy these days.


    No response to what i said health?


    They should sue because GZ was abusing drugs and this is likely what caused him to start the whole episode. He was on 2 medications, mixed them. He was not supposed to be driving or doing anything. these are not normal drugs, they are not supposed to be used prior to an activity like neighborhood watch, which includes driving a vehicle. I am surprised the prosecution didn’t make much of this, but I thought they were mistaken for going for the murder 2 rather than manslaughter.

    THe medications can induce paranoia and agitation. This is pharmaceutical drugs, heavy with side effects. prescription for 1 of them says to sleep 7 hours upon taking. this is drug abuse.


    to adams murder 2 as you call it.the real name is called second degree murder


    The truth is far more boring. It’s all about ordinary, everyday stress management, relationship counseling, etc.

    And if one doesn’t have stress, or a relationship, etc., how would one benefit from therapy?


    It’s a mechanism for the spineless, gutless, and copeless to feel better about themselves.


    I didn’t say a “clinical psychologist”, I said a therapist, which can be a psychologist (clinical or not) or a social worker. You’re putting words in my mouth.

    Psychiatrists don’t only do “medication management”. Many also do therapy, and that takes 50 minutes to an hour.


    adams -“They should sue because GZ was abusing drugs and this is likely what caused him to start the whole episode.”

    Repeating the same lies from previous doesn’t make it true. Taking prescribed meds is Not Abuse.

    “I am surprised the prosecution didn’t make much of this,”

    They had enough things that they made fools of themselves -you want to add more stuff -so they could look more foolish?

    “THe medications can induce paranoia and agitation. This is pharmaceutical drugs, heavy with side effects. prescription for 1 of them says to sleep 7 hours upon taking. this is drug abuse.”

    Thanks for the PDR on the drugs. Please look up the words “drug abuse” in the dictionary – you obviously don’t know the meaning.


    I read somewhere that Zimmerman identifies himself as Hispanic what about his fathers heritage (whatever that is) how can he just divorce himself from half of his roots I guess the same question can be asked of Barack Obama. Tiger Woods when he first broke out onto the scene referred to himself as multicultured or something to that effect, i believe he has some Asian roots as well as black.


    Simple answer. The two of them want to be identified as minorities. Why? Because ever since the US embarked on Affirmative Action – it’s much better to be a minority as far as having rights in this country goes. But you see from this story that African Americans are considered a more important class than Hispanics. No cases of self-defense are prosecuted by State Attorneys and looked into by the Feds for civil rights violations.

    YW Moderator-42

    Today, George Zimmerman helped rescue a family from overturned SUV in Sanford, FL.

    When will he learn to stay in his car? ^_^


    ha ha ha

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