Tagged: Get refusal
April 2, 2021 1:41 am at 1:41 am #1961981Pashut08701Participant
So I know that get refusal has become a hot topic recently in the frum world with a lot of good things happening due to pressure put on the get refusing animals (I’m obviously referring to cases where there is no valid reason for holding back- and please don’t write back that there never is a valid reason. Because if there isn’t I didn’t mean there is. I just have no knowledge in the area.) One thing which I fail to understand is that many times you see there being protests and public shaming of the family members. My question is what did they do wrong? I know that in some cases like the recent one in monsey the official story is that his family is very much behind him. But in other cases like a recent one in Florida there was a protest in front of the family’s house and all the immediate family’s names were published on frum sites. Those same sites did not give any background to the family being behind him one bit and he doesn’t even live at home. So if a family is really not behind the get refusal and supporting it why are they being shamed? I’m not referring just to the stories I referenced to they were just examples. My question is a general one.April 2, 2021 11:06 am at 11:06 am #1962025
You are absolutely correct in that embarrassing family members is completely prohibited. There is no heter in Halacha to do so. And if asked, these unschooled thoughtless organizers and protesters never halachicly justify what they’re doing to third-party family members because they have no explanation or even understanding.
If you look at any of these cases there’s virtually never any siruv against the family members.
And that’s all putting aside whether they’re even correct about the husband himself, altogether.April 2, 2021 11:13 am at 11:13 am #1962029daasyachid1Participant
@pashut That’s a great point. I’ve been having the same question recently. If the family is behind the refusal “go get ’em”, if not leave them alone.April 2, 2021 11:14 am at 11:14 am #1962035Ari256Participant
In my opinion there should be no shaming, the Ora organization is hardly orthodox and definitely not ultra or yeshvishApril 2, 2021 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #1962084NOYBParticipant
It’s almost like adopting twitter tactics and turning the job of shluchei beis din and talmidei chachomim over to a bunch of lo yutzlachs who have no respect for halacha anyway was a bad idea that has and will lead to more chillul hashem and lynch mobs. Look at a picture of these get protests. do the people there look like yorei shomayim who mamesh feel for these poor women and are standing up for the kovod of beis din? Not in any of the pictures I’ve seen.April 2, 2021 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #1962119ywnjudyParticipant
I found this online, written by R’Moshe Feinstein:
My honorable friend, meḥutan, ha-Rav ha-Gaon, Moreinu ha-Rav Yeḥiel Yitzḥak Perr, shlit”a, Head of Mesivta Derekh Ayson, wishing you well. Regarding the question of the honor of his exalted Torah whether it is proper to add to a Tannaim the following language: “If after the marriage they [the couple] will separate, G-d forbid, the husband will not refrain from giving a get, and the woman will not refuse to accept it, when the specific Beit Din so orders.” By adding this addendum, the secular courts will force the two sides to listen to the Beit Din.Adding this is permitted and the get will not be a ‘forced get.’ It also has the benefit that
it will save her [the wife] from the chains of agunah.
It is advisable that he [the rav] meet with the groom and bride and get to know them well to determine whether such a clause might, G-d forbid, based on their nature cause any arguments or feuds be-tween them. His friend, Moshe Feinstein
P.S. The asterisks are mine.April 5, 2021 9:20 am at 9:20 am #1962351yitzchokmParticipant
How does your letter add to this discussion?April 5, 2021 9:22 am at 9:22 am #1962379hmlParticipant
I would have thought the reasons for approaching family members is obvious: that their embarrassment at being publicly named as close relatives will cause them to pressure the gett refuser to stop his vindictive and cruel behavior and give the gett.
And as a sidebar: if I still had children to marry off, I’d insist on a Halachic pre-nup, which protects both parties. I will push for it for my grandchildren, 3 of whom are rapidly approaching shidduchim.April 5, 2021 9:23 am at 9:23 am #1962387daasyachid1Participant
A friend of mine has reached out to the Rabbi behind the protests in the recent case in Lakewood/Boca Raton and was told that he was not behind the protests in Lakewood by the family’s house and he never authorized any “frum” website to post the entire family’s names.April 5, 2021 11:16 am at 11:16 am #1962424commonsaychelParticipant
@hml, grandparents should smile for the pictures maybe offer to host a sheva bruchos other then that should mind the own business. If my parents / inlaws stuck the nose into my kids shidduchim I would very politly tell them to go fly a kite.April 5, 2021 11:40 am at 11:40 am #1962431CHOOSIDParticipant
I like flying kites!! On chol Hamoed we buy kites from amazing savings but they never really take off and when they do they get tangledApril 5, 2021 11:40 am at 11:40 am #1962430
dass1: He nevertheless bears responsibility for the travesty because he opened the can of worms by allowing anything in the first place without specifying any limits.
hml: Doing that runs a serious risk of causing them to hit age 37 being single.April 5, 2021 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #1962441The little I knowParticipant
I suspect that there are issues being mixed here, and this provokes some to make rash statements or generalize beyond what is realistic.
That families sometimes mingle and interfere in the lives of a young couple is ancient history. Certainly they can be supportive. Sadly, they are too often a significant source of negative energy. What might even be a legitimate conflict can easily get amplified into something horrific. Resolving that is much harder.
When a couple is feuding, it is quite common that their respective families choose sides. While understandable, it is most often disastrous. Instead of a conflict involving two individuals, it can deteriorate into the “Hatfields and the McCoys”, and degenerate into families becoming enemies with little reason to dislike each other.
The get refusal issue has been blown up greater that its real size. No, I do not deny that there are couples out there who should have been divorced by gett long ago, and are still not. And the generalized statements pointing to evil men and evil women are foolish. The greatest majority of gittin not being given yet are because of the difficulties in working out agreements to settle the affairs of financial support, custody and visitation, and related matters of the divorce. In this huge category, there are holdouts, both the men and the women, who are recalcitrant in the progress towards an agreement. And who is right or wrong is not established by statistics or by generalization. No two cases are the same.
Those cases that end up in court (often with halachic approval), tend to drag on longer. There are get refusers who choose to abuse their wives by withholding. There are also many who are given this refuser label unfairly. I have encountered women who make unrealistic demands, and threaten to make false police reports of abuse against them and/or the children. Others have stated openly that they will put out rumors of get refusal. Until hearing both sides, it is unwise and unfair to reach any conclusion about any individual case.April 5, 2021 2:30 pm at 2:30 pm #1962442Pashut08701Participant
The obviousness of it does not make it permissible. Maybe let’s also harass his entire neighborhood. If you owe me money can I harass your family until you pay me back?April 5, 2021 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #1962542ywnjudyParticipant
yitzchok, like maybe it could help avoid the need for =future= such discussions? And if not, so be it. I’m out of my depth.April 5, 2021 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #1962539
“If you owe me money can I harass your family until you pay me back?”
Pashut08701: Excellent point. And not only harass the family, but outright publicly mevayish (embarrass) the innocent family members. Can you publicly humiliate family members of someone who r’l beat someone, burnt down someone’s house or even killed someone? Of course not. No Beis Din anywhere ever gave permission to disgrace any family member of someone who has wronged someone else.
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