Getting kids to listen to you

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  • #613970
    truthbetold
    Participant

    Any ideas how to get your children to listen to you??

    How come some children listen to their parents, doing everything they ask of them and some kids are more defiant?

    #1037235
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The parents who are hung up on having their kids “obey” them make ridiculous demands, and the kids learn that the parents have their own interests in mind, and then don’t obey anything.

    #1037236
    SpiceofLife
    Member

    This doesn’t answer your question, but if it’s any comfort, IMHO how much a kid does or doesn’t listen when younger, doesn’t seem to have much bearing on how they’ll turn out later on. Seemingly defiant kids can grow up to give much nachas, & kids who seem easy & obedient… well don’t forget to daven for them too.

    I know someone whose kid went off the derech, & the mother says, “I never had any bother with her…I don’t know what happened. She was always such a pleasure”.

    Each is born with their own nature, & we just try our best & daven.

    Seems to me, that if a kid has a tendency to defiance, it means that being obedient is difficult for him/her, & parents need to learn techniques for handling the situation.

    I once heard an amazing shiur from Rav Yechiel Yakovson (chinuch expert), & he said parents should try to give kids as few orders/demands as poss, but what that they do give, they should insist on (at least one thing a day). The thrust of the whole shiur was about kids needing to be obedient for themselves, for their emotional health, not as we may mistakenly think to eg. enable smooth functioning of home…

    Don’t have time to post more right now.

    #1037237
    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    The carrot and stick method. Works with my kids every time.

    #1037238
    πŸ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    Children are people. They have their own brains and make their own decisions. You can’t make a child listen to you. As for the difference between some kids and others, it’s called personality.

    #1037239
    shteig
    Participant

    Try “How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk”

    by Elaine Mazlish and Adele Faber.

    #1037240
    oot for life
    Participant

    What are we talking about here?

    There are so many factors that go into each individual kid (chinuch al pi darcho). They’re running away from you in the street or they’re not putting the milk back in the fridge? They’re 2 or 22? Sometimes its an issue sometimes its not and a parent needs to know the difference, irrelevant to their own ego (its tough sometimes).

    All that being said, one way, and note it takes time and effort, is for the parents to set a good example. If Mommy treats Totty with respect and Totty does everything right away Mommy asks kids will learn that is the proper way to act. Same goes with parents and in-laws.

    #1037241
    BTGuy
    Participant

    Ironically, kids may be listening to you even if it does not look like they are. On the other hand, they may look attentive, but are just letting it go in one ear and out the other. My point is, you never know; but you just have to keep on addressing matters as you see fit regardless of how kids seem to react. More may sink in over time than you would ever realize.

    #1037242
    ivory
    Member

    ??? Totty does rigt away what mommy asks??!!

    #1037243
    funnybone
    Participant

    There are many different parenting styles. You and your spouse need to choose one that works for you.

    You can make charts for listening, give allowance, have consequences, have family discussions and use active listening.

    Some books that I like are Make Me Don’t Break Me, by R. Moshe Gans, Parent Effectiveness Training, by Thomas Gordon, and Helicopters, Drill Sergeants and Consultants by by Jim Fay.

    Good luck, I recommend that whatever style you choose you find someone who will guide you.

    #1037244
    catch yourself
    Participant

    1) Respect your children. Talk to them in a way that communicates high esteem. This does NOT mean empty artificial comments. It means talking in a way that shows you recognize and appreciate that they are not your little robo-slaves, that they are intelligent and capable people, that they are mature enough to make decisions for themselves. Respect and responsibility go hand in hand – give one, and they will accept the other.

    2) Offer choices instead of making demands. Never give a choice you can’t live with (i.e., “You can either wear that skirt or go to school with no skirt”). Allow the child to make the decision, in your time frame, but with no added pressure or advice. Show by your attitude that they are in control of this decision, and either way is fine with you.

    (Read Parenting with Love and Logic)

    #1037245
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The parents who are hung up on having their kids “obey” them make ridiculous demands, and the kids learn that the parents have their own interests in mind, and then don’t obey anything.

    You are all terrible people and terrible parents, and it is your fault that your kids are all keeping half shabbos and going OTD.

    Obedient? Defiant? These are words you use when talking about your kids? Is your kid a pet dog or a horse or a slave that you expect obedience from? Who says you are entitled to obedience from your kids? Who says they shouldn’t defy you?

    You find it annoying when they don’t obey? Too bad on you–your kids’ job is not to make your happy. Your job is to take care of your kids and give to them without expectation of return–just like Hashem gives to us without expectation of return.

    When your newborn cries all night and won’t stop–you take care of him anyway and love him just the same. Well, that’s how you should treat your 20 year old who sneaks out Friday night and drinks beer with his buddies.

    #1037246
    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    obedient adjective

    1.

    obeying or willing to obey; complying with or submissive to authority:

    <i>an obedient son.</i>

    defiant

    adjective

    1.

    characterized by defiance; boldly resistant or challenging:

    <i>a defiant attitude.</i>

    (dictionary.com)

    what’s the issue? (Is this a no-marking-tests-with-red-pen attitude?)

    #1037247
    BarryLS1
    Participant

    It starts with a positive loving relationship with your children, that also include proper discipline when necessary with fairness.

    Communication is also key. It is important to teach children how to think in order for them to make proper decisions when you are not around. One technique, which works in a general situation, without any danger or immediate action needed is by asking a series of questions that lead them to a proper conclusion instead of just telling them or demanding something.

    Children will feel more respected and when they get it, a light bulb will seem to go off. Just be careful, that a smart kid will then try to use the technique on you.

    #1037248
    catch yourself
    Participant

    SDD:

    I know it’s a little bit off topic, but before you belittle it, the “no-marking-tests-with-a-red-pen” attitude is currently the prevailing attitude among mechanchim, and with good reason. Not that there was a problem with how our Rebbeim dealt with us; times have changed. Society has changed. Children today are different from children a generation ago. Why the dismissive attitude?

    The problem with dictionary definitions is that they do not always convey connotation. I personally do not think that in this case there was a problem with the usage of those terms, but it is important to consider the full meaning and flavor of a word, and not just to go with the dictionary.

    #1037249
    ivory
    Member

    Where did the OP say its about kids going OTD? Maybe she’s talking about a toddler ? Why the rant?

    #1037250

    The parents who are hung up on having their kids “obey” them make ridiculous demands, and the kids learn that the parents have their own interests in mind, and then don’t obey anything.

    You are all terrible people and terrible parents, and it is your fault that your kids are all keeping half shabbos and going OTD.

    Obedient? Defiant? These are words you use when talking about your kids? Is your kid a pet dog or a horse or a slave that you expect obedience from? Who says you are entitled to obedience from your kids? Who says they shouldn’t defy you?

    You find it annoying when they don’t obey? Too bad on you–your kids’ job is not to make your happy. Your job is to take care of your kids and give to them without expectation of return–just like Hashem gives to us without expectation of return.

    When your newborn cries all night and won’t stop–you take care of him anyway and love him just the same. Well, that’s how you should treat your 20 year old who sneaks out Friday night and drinks beer with his buddies.

    Where did the OP say its about kids going OTD? Maybe she’s talking about a toddler ? Why the rant?

    You did notice who wrote those comments, did you not?

    #1037251

    The parents who are hung up on having their kids “obey” them make ridiculous demands, and the kids learn that the parents have their own interests in mind, and then don’t obey anything.

    Not sure what you mean by “hung up”, but I think it’s important that kids listen to their parents. Just like Hashem thinks it’s important that we listen to Him.

    #1037252
    notasheep
    Member

    Kids are supposed to listen to their parents. It’s all there in the fifth commandment. However parents need to have seichel and understand what demands/requests they make of their kids, and where to place the boundaries so children understand what is non-negotiable.

    #1037253
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    obedient adjective

    1.

    obeying or willing to obey; complying with or submissive to authority:

    <i>an obedient son.</i>

    defiant

    adjective

    1.

    characterized by defiance; boldly resistant or challenging:

    <i>a defiant attitude.</i>

    (dictionary.com)

    what’s the issue?

    The issue is that you think you have a right for your kids to be “obeying or willing to obey; complying with or submissive to authority.” You don’t.

    #1037254

    The issue is that you think you have a right for your kids to be “obeying or willing to obey; complying with or submissive to authority.” You don’t.

    I agree with that, but despite not having the “right” to have obedient children, I have the obligation to try and be mechanech them to be obedient.

    #1037255
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    You have that right but it is you who has to exercise that right.

    Remember that having them listen to you is about Chinuch and not convenience. A noticeable difference between the two is that when it is about Chinuch you are ready to jump up and approach the child, whereas if it is about convenience that would be a contradiction to the request.

    A child realizes when the parent is asking from laziness or even tiredness. It is easy to take that for granted and ignore it. Then you ask where is the drink, he shrugs it off and you give up. Next time gets even harder.

    So one answer to the question is, don’t be lazy. Don’t let it pass. Be ready to jump up and get it done or help, prod, encourage or demand what needs to get done.

    #1037256
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I agree with that, but despite not having the “right” to have obedient children, I have the obligation to try and be mechanech them to be obedient.

    Of course. But should you teach them that at the expense of teaching good middos and to not be power hungry and petty, and to not get upset when people don’t get upset when people don’t bow to youw whims, and to not use the Torah as a tool for achieving your selfish desires?

    Perhaps a little balance?

    And I will tell you how to teach him to obey Hashem. You obey Hashem.

    #1037257

    But should you teach them that at the expense of teaching good middos and to not be power hungry and petty, and to not get upset when people don’t get upset when people don’t bow to youw whims, and to not use the Torah as a tool for achieving your selfish desires?

    Of course not.

    Perhaps a little balance?

    Perhaps a lot.

    And I will tell you how to teach him to obey Hashem. You obey Hashem.

    That is #1. But there’s more.

    I don’t think we’re disagreeing much about parenting here, but I see you as having jumped all over the OP and subsequent posters who think there’s an important part of chinuch called discipline, and that that was unfair. I think it’s fair to discuss discipline and obedience, and it doesnt have to mean to the exclusion of other forms of chinuch, and there is no reason to think that they all want obedience for selfish reasons.

    #1037258
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I disagree. I think it is mostly and maybe all selfishness.

    Moreover, when it is rov selfishness, there is no way that there is any good coming out of it since the kid picks up on that.

    #1037259

    Right, so we are not disagreeing about parenting, we are disagreeing with how cynical to be about the motivations of people we don’t know.

    #1037260

    Is Popa Cynical?

    Agav, your response to shitzy was gadlus.

    #1037261
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    No, we aren’t disagreeing at all.

    #1037262
    πŸ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    Kids will not listen if

    1. The can’t hear you

    2. It’s impossible

    3. They don’t want to.

    #1037263

    Well, at the very least, we’re disagreeing about whether we’re disagreeing.

    #1037264
    SpiceofLife
    Member

    While I’m rocking a colicky fellow with my foot (& typing here at same time), I’m trying to get some other little & not so little people to listen to me, “Darlings, please brush your teeth & go to bed”…

    I say it once gently & they all listen straightaway. They answer “G’night Mom, thanks for an amazing day & the delicious supper!” & they blow me kisses & all fly into (or is it ‘onto’?) their beds & drop to sleep…That’s after tidying up their rooms & pitching in in the kitchen too.

    What is all this fuss about getting kids to listen? There’s people here whose kids don’t always listen?!

    Na, not really, just joking (although the fact that they’re B”H good kids is not a joke)…

    Kids who ALWAYS listen to what they’re told need a psychiatric evaluation. So thank Hashem that your kids are normal.

    #1037265
    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    Hopefully you’re not in my time zone. If you are, I’ve got no symapthy for you.

    #1037266
    SpiceofLife
    Member

    To SDD, not checked what your time zone is, but I’m in the Holy-Land as I’ve mentioned on a different thread, & now it is 10:50 pm. Late enough to warrant sympathy? Actually sympathy isn’t what I’m after. No complaints. I just enjoy seeing the funny side of life. Keeps us sane…

    Layla tov, or ‘tzaharayim tovim’ depending where you are…

    #1037267
    BarryLS1
    Participant

    One little addition (actually big addition). You have to set the right example. How are you with your parents? Do you show respect? (not blind obedience). You have to be a responsible adult, respectful and honest. Most of the time, though not always, character flaws that you see in kids are a mere reflection of the behaviors of their parents.

    #1037268
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Excellent point Barry

    #1037269
    SpiceofLife
    Member

    It is excellent point, Barry, as Popa said. Yes, we do have to set the right example & try to treat our own parents with respect.. be honest etc.

    But the last bit about ‘most of the time…reflection of .. parents’ is not true in real life, at least IMHO.

    Parents need to do their best, but at the end of the day, each child is born with their own bechira.

    This idea of ‘most of the time’ reminds me of the myth in the world where every time a kid goes off the derech, it’s the parents’ fault, & every time a kid has problems, it’s the parents fault.

    Yes, a parent’s input can make a huge impact on their kids’ lives, but many other factors can too.

    Wishing e/o S”D with bringing their kids up.

    #1037270
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Well Spice, I happen to think that “myth” is true.

    But I’ll turn the question to you–you call it a myth implying you are convinced it is not true. How do you know?

    #1037271
    sirvoddmort
    Member

    The only reason I am even considering joining this discussion is that I’m coming to the CR straight after my first babysitting stint in about two years. But here goes…

    Carrot and Stick. Not too much carrot as to reward bad behaviour (Off the point, Spellcheck, if you try and give me American spelling once more, I’ll dismember the annoying paperclip), not too much stick as to inspire resentment. It works.

    Talk to them with respect. This does not mean flattering them or talking to them as adults. Just respect.

    be firm. If you go back on your word once, they’ll push you to do it again.

    Be their friend. What I mean to say is if you are generally nice to a kid, and really listen to them, they are far more likely to listen to you at a later stage. I don’t mean act like a friend rather than a parent, just that negativity alone does not get results.

    And finally, every single bit of this advice will go straight out of the window when I get kids of my own, and am just desperate to go to sleep. But it will serve nicely as a diary entry to remind me in future years that I once had what could be considered principles.

    #1037272
    tzviki16
    Member

    I love my parents so i listen to them.

    #1037273
    SpiceofLife
    Member

    Popa, you asked how do I know it’s a myth?

    I’ve thought about this, but not sure how to answer. One thing I am sure is that I’m sure.

    Begins even with little things: Once went to PTA, & they report about my angelic daughter,teacher’s dream etc.. & of course add on that they can see what a good home she comes from, so well brought up, da da da. On same day, my (then) very mischievous 2 1/2 year old did some climbing, while I tried to stop him, & s/o yelled at me “You don’t teach your kids how to behave?!!”… That amazing girl & ‘terrible’ boy brought up by same parents, I got misplaced credit for 1 (she was a natural ‘gutta’) & misplaced criticism for the other (he was a ball of mischief & I was doing way more than the average mother to ‘educate’ him)….(He got past that age & became really easy B”H).

    If it was only with little ones, wouldn’t be such a big deal. But I’ve seen with plenty of teenagers (B”H not my own). After parents did amazing job, giving gallons of love, gentle discipline, excellent sholom bayis loads of tefillos…& still something goes wrong eg. kid goes off derech, or eg. kid becomes mentally ill… Not enough the deep heartache? No, on top of that, they need society smugly judging them too…. “Oh, parents were too strict” “Parents were too relaxed & didn’t give enough discipline” “Something weird in that house” “That boy is violent.. his father must be like that too behind closed doors” “Kid had nervous breakdown b/c parents pressured him too much” etc etc.

    Of course, if parents are doing things wrong eg. being abusive, eg. not providing enough love, eg.arguing with their spouse a lot… then yes, it impacts kids very badly. But not every case of kids having issues is b/c of parents.

    Surely parents see with their own kids, how some are just born with easygoing natures, & without doing much, they’re happy & polite & easy to raise. And others are born into same home, & somehow every time there’s a fight, they’re there. Every time s/o’s crying, they’re around… always causing trouble. Parents work very hard trying to tame & gently encourage the difficult child.

    (This ‘difficult child’ phenomenon isn’t something fixed. Often the one who was an angel at age 5, can be a difficult teen, & the one who wrecks everything as a 2 year old, can be a really sunny 12 year old…)

    There’s genetics (the nature as opposed to nurture), friends, neighbors, teachers, rebbis, reading material, internet, & the child/teen himself who (as I already said) has his own bechira… So many factors involved.

    Of course if we parents do our best, give loads of love & understanding, make our homes a very happy place, are emotionally in tune with kids, provide gentle discipline, have good sholom bayis (this also is not always in parents’ hands), daven, build the kids self esteem up, and we ourselves serve as a good example, then yes, we’re giving our kids a much better chance at turning out right…

    Sorry I don’t have ways to prove my ‘myth’ theory. I’m not an official survey taker so I don’t have hard data. But I’ve met loads of people & read a lot on this topic over the last 20 years, & I’m sure of my opinion.

    You, & a/o else reading this, can take it or leave it. But even those who completely disagree, would still agree that parents aren’t always the guilty party. Even Barry above (whom Popa agrees with) used the words ‘most of the time’ & not ‘all the time’. So don’t be quick to judge when you see a kid/teen/adult off the derech/mentally ill/behaving badly etc. His/her parents are in enough pain as it is, & maybe they’re the ones not in the ‘most’ category, but in the other few.

    There’s plenty of parents who do lots wrong, & their kids turn out fine, or better than fine, & vice versa too.

    Look how Rifka Imeinu turned out after the house of Besuel, & Rochel after the house of Lavan. Look how Yishmael came from Avrohom & Eisav came from Yitzchok… (Of course you can find meforshim who put some slight blame on parents even there in various ways, but doesn’t change the big picture). No-one has any guarantees with their kids.

    Sorry, going on so long, but another thing I wanted to mention, is, it also depends where one is coming from. If we’re looking as a child at our parents, we need to have one kinds of perspective (as forgiving, understanding & appreciative as we can manage, unless they did things really wrong. We need to understand that there’s more than one way to show love, that they did their best, that we don’t know all the issues they had to grapple with…). If we’re looking at ourselves as parents, then we need to hold ourselves to a very high standard & do our best to improve, by reading, getting advice, assessing things regularly, by working hard on ourselves, etc.

    May bringing up kids go easily & well for e/o, but let us not be so proud & smug as to give ourselves all the credit. Yes, we can pat ourselves on the back for trying our best & doing a good job, but know that it’s only hishtadlus. We need to thank Hashem for kids that turn out right.

    Sorry such a megilla.

    #1037274
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Thank you for the thoughtful response.

    On the avos, I would respond that good parents are not guaranteed children who are tzadikim. But Yishmael and Esav were not maladjusted children–they were just reshaim.

    Kids who go off the derech are not reshaim; they are just maladjusted.

    #1037275

    Shmold shmargument. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/different-strokes-for-different-folks

    My opinion, b’kitzur:

    There are three things that determine how a child turns out: nature, nurture, and bechirah. The first two determine how hard or easy the choices are, but it’s ultimately his or her choice. The parents are a huge part of nurture, so often, OTD can be traced to poor parenting, but it’s still not the only factor.

    And popa, there are no reshaim today? Meiheicha teisi?

    I’m with Spice of Life on this.

    #1037276
    ivory
    Member

    I have unfortunately know people who have stopped being frum for no obvious reason. I have told people that if i take credit fir my “good” kids I ski have to take credit or blame for my ” …..” kids

    #1037277
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    And popa, there are no reshaim today? Meiheicha teisi?

    I’ve never met one.

    I’ve never met anyone who had stopped being frum where there wasn’t a very obvious reason.

    #1037278
    ivory
    Member

    Why did my response jump to be before the post I was responding to?

    #1037279

    Let’s say there was never someone who went OTD other than where there was an obvious reason (which I don’t accept). That still doesn’t mean that the child isn’t to blame.

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