Getting the other to say no

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Viewing 37 posts - 51 through 87 (of 87 total)
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  • #972108
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I don’t think you even understand the objection. You keep talking about honesty, when that isn’t the problem at all.

    The problem is bein odom l’chaveiro. It is a mean and horrible thing to manipulate people for personal gain, especially in such an emotionally sensitive area.

    I am even more troubled that you say you won’t do it because you want to be honest. Honesty is still about yourself–you are still only thinking about yourself while interacting with other people.

    I’m not kidding here; I think you need to think about this, especially inasmuch as you are considering getting married. You need to interact with other people while considering what is going in their life–not only how the interaction can help or hurt you.

    And it has nothing to do with shidduch dating. I’ve done way more shidduch dating than you have (I can guarantee that one, with AAA rating). I am intimately familiar with the dynamics you are referring to.

    And even DY is only arguing in terms of degrees–he agrees it is unethical. And even he is thinking about the other person–he thinks sometimes the other will be less hurt this way.

    I think you are a good person, but you have been very misguided in this area of personal interaction.

    #972109
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Nevertheless, I wouldn’t do it because I believe shidduchim come from Shamayim and my hishtadlus is to always tell the truth and not mislead people. In this case, this would cause me some wasted time, but that’s worth it for me to be a person who is honest.

    But I agree with DY that it is not really unethical, and I wouldn’t judge someone else who did this.

    Dishonesty is inherently unethical, unless you have a very good reason for it. If shiduchim are all from shamayim, etc., then why would lying to facilitate them be justified?

    It’s interesting that there are two distinct groups of responses here. My hypothesis is that if you ONLY do shidduch dating, you think that this is an okay thing to do.

    I am not yet dating, but I plan on using the shidduch system exclusively when I date.

    #972110
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    and I agree with popa that dishonesty is not at all the issue here.

    #972111
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Not disagreeing with him is also manipulation in terms of leading him on.

    Say I and my friend are very good at the conversation part of dating and enjoy making people enjoy themselves, and this is a frequent result.

    The purpose of dating is to see if they’re right for us, and if it’s obvious they’re not, we’re ‘damned if we do and damned if we don’t’. If we continue being our sweet easygoing selves, which is the way we are to those we like and we do behave that way at home too, the person thinks we want to date again and will be very disappointed when we say no. Again, this is the pure shidduch system and anything we do will be reported to at least 3 people.

    We already discussed the other option.

    I agree that it is unethical to manipulate someone purely for personal gain. But this gives him fuller freedom of choice, I am not limiting his choices in any way.

    I apologize for my poor writing and expression recently, my brain is being overloaded in mathematics and my verbal skills are taking the blow.

    #972112
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Now you’re just changing the circumstances to annoy us. You certainly didn’t read my remarks as telling you to be dishonest in order to keep him and then be the one to say no.

    Gentlemen, we have been trolled. I probably deserved it.

    #972113
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Of course I am changing the circumstances. It’s a hypothetical situation and can therefore change to suit my imagination.

    Anyway, I am proud to have successfully, if inadvertently, trolled the great Popa Bar Abba.

    #972114
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    I think she is little misguided, and too given to blindly justifying what she is used to. I don’t think she is trolling.

    #972115
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    torah613: Being nice to people you don’t necessarily like isn’t manipulative – ostensibly, you should always be nice to people, whether you like them or not. It would be unreasonable to expect someone to be rude in order to make the other person aware of their disinterest.

    #972116
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    T613t,

    I did not say it was ethical (my previous post was facetious, in response to popa). I think it is UNethical.

    I was only disagreeing with the degree to which it is wrong, assuming the other person wasn’t being hurt. Still, I think it is a lack of respect for the other, unless the motivation is purely to save them from hurt feelings (which it isn’t). So although I disagree with it, I don’t think it defines the person as selfish.

    If the other person is being hurt, I think it’s a horrible, selfish thing to do.

    #972117
    oomis
    Participant

    Oh, and let’s flip the story.If I found out a guy had done this to my sister–I would round up my brothers and hunt him down and give it to him the old fashioned way.And tell everyone in the world. “

    See, I told you GUYS TALK!!!!!!!!

    #972118
    superme
    Member

    Yeh just be straight out it will be better in a long one. Guys and women just talk and talk so it can get spread around then your name might not be the greatest. Hatzlacha

    #972119
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Well, I recently had such a situation, and I said no. I really appreciated it the one time a boy said no to me on a date, I thought it was very honest and direct.

    #972120
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    oomis, superme: Surely you don’t think the only reason you shouldn’t do such a thing is because people will talk?

    #972121
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Actually…after reading your earlier posts, oomis – I take that back. Sorry.

    #972122
    superme
    Member

    One of many- no that’s not the reason but that is one reason to be careful. There are many more and peoplewere all talking bout other people talking about it so thats why I said that but there are many other reasons to if u want I can tell you..

    #972123
    OneOfMany
    Participant

    lol I am with you on that. I just think that the main reason is that it means you are a callous (or at the very least, unthinking) person, which is something to be very concerned about…

    #972124
    oomis
    Participant

    The main reason, is that it is not acting like an adult to not be honest and forthright with another person. It is worse to deliberately act in such a way as to make that person think negatively about you. No one is putting a gun to your head to go out with the person. As I said previously, there will be many such moments with which you are faced in life, where you will want or need to say no about something important and it may even be a really uncomfortable situation. This is part of adulthood.

    (It’s why I am so against the whole “let the shadchan do the asking out and breaking up for you,” deal) If you are old enough to date, you are old enough to UNdate, as well. And yes, if you act in less than a menschlech way, people WILL talk about you.

    #972125
    superme
    Member

    One of many- I 100% agree with you

    #972126
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The main reason, is that it is not acting like an adult to not be honest and forthright with another person.

    Be careful with that. Mutar l’shanos mipnei hashalom. You certainly wouldn’t expect someone to be honest and forthright if they didn’t want to continue dating because one found the other unattractive.

    The most important thing to take into consideration is the other person’s feelings, which is actually a very good reason to use a shadchan.

    #972127
    ShiraTobala
    Member

    yes

    #972128
    superme
    Member

    That’s true

    #972129
    superme
    Member

    But normally after like 3/4 date you drop the shadchan

    #972130
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    Superme, that entirely depends on the dynamics of the relationship. Honestly, there can’t really be rules after the 3-4 date. Sometimes one party is less enthusiastic, and the shadchan becomes even more important.

    #972131
    superme
    Member

    That’s true but I’m only sayingthis bec DY made a comment on shadcanim so I said right but they got dropped sometimes… But thankyou for clarifying it torah613613torah

    #972132
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The shadchan often stays involved until the end. Often, “dropping the shadchan” only means that the boy asks her for another date on his own, but the shadchan still works to try to keep things smooth.

    #972133
    y me
    Member

    Here’s a compromise: Try telling the truth – that you frequently post in YWN’s coffee room – that’s sure to get him to say no. Oh, right – you still want to preserve your good name in the shidduch world so maybe you shouldn’t mention YWN posting.

    #972134
    yoya
    Member

    bump:)

    #972135
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I changed my mind. I agree with Torah completely.

    #972136
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I changed my mind. I agree with Torah completely.

    ?(facepalm)?

    #972137
    commonsense
    Participant

    DY please explain

    #972139
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I am showing exasperation that he changed his mind, as a spoof of his exasperation with me, earlier.

    I don’t take his “change of mind” seriously, though.

    #972140
    commonsense
    Participant

    got it. thanx

    #972141
    ObstacleIllusion
    Participant

    Say no to say yes.

    #972142
    midwesterner
    Participant

    I just re-read this. Wow! Very interesting watching it all develop!

    #972143
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    For the record, I still don’t agree with DY though.

    #972144
    midwesterner
    Participant

    Not nearly as important as the other way though.

    #972145
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Does bring up a few questions.

Viewing 37 posts - 51 through 87 (of 87 total)
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