May 31, 2015 3:53 am at 3:53 am #615758
What happens or how is it viewed in shamayim if in your youth you gained your success from being mechalal shabbos and working all those long nights and doing whatever it took to make it- and then later in life you can retire and stop working on shabbos but want to do teshuva, but in the meantime all your current wealth would not be possible if you had kept shabbos? I heard rov moshe speaks about cheating on your SATs, and this effecting the person throughout their lives since their wealth originally came from cheating.May 31, 2015 4:04 am at 4:04 am #1087859
You don’t get wealthy by being mechalel shabbos. Probably you got poorer. I wonder if you’ll ever catch up to where you would have been.May 31, 2015 7:19 am at 7:19 am #1087860
I am talking about someone who climbed to the top of the corporate chain going to all the ceo’s non kosher parties, dinner meetings, making himself available 24/7 including shabbos, never missing an opportunity to work.
Lets talk about an extreme case, someone who got rich by being a mosser and got money every-time he gave a jew over to the non-jewish authorities.May 31, 2015 7:34 am at 7:34 am #1087861
you never make money on Shabbos. you THINK your making money but hes not.
his riches might be him getting his reward in this world instead of in the true future world of olam haba. due to now him being such a mechalel Shabbos for such a long time R”L
Tell him if he wants to do teshuva for his great sin (which is chayav death just for doing it one time on purpose) that he needs to give all his money to tzedaka & remove any benefit he still has from all those shabbosim of chillul Shabbos & then he still needs to do teshuva from the heart with fasting also.
(its never too late to do teshuva, kings achav & menashe did teshuva after 30 years of sinning & causing klal yisroel to sin. & their teshuva was accepted why? because it was sincere teshuva)May 31, 2015 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #1087862
I love it. Stam people dictating extreme recourses for T’shuvah. I mean, I happen to agree in this example. But at least I know that my opinion on this issue is worthless.May 31, 2015 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #1087864
What if you were shomer shabbos but t acquired wealth by being a slumlord or cheating the n business?May 31, 2015 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #1087865
lesschumras: yes, that would also apply, what if you got wealthy not only through an issur deoreisa, but through immoral means. And after you do teshuva, you are still left with all this wealth.June 2, 2015 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #1087866
Or what if a key part of your business was selling huge quantities of bread over pesach. This allowed you to grow larger and larger until you became very wealthy.June 2, 2015 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #1087867
Here is how it works.
One of two things will happen.
1) He will lose his money, have a car crash, etc. basically anything bad that happens to regular people, and everyone will say, this is because he worked on Shabbos!
2) Nothing bad will happen, and people will say you can’t question the ways of Hashem.
So if it’s bad we know why, if nothing bad happens how can we know all of hashem’s calculations.June 4, 2015 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #1087868
The same thing that happens to all the yeshivos that survive on money donated by shabbas violators. Life goes on.June 4, 2015 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #1087869
great point abogado,
mosdos that do fundraisers get mechalel shabbos money all the time. Do they check the frumkeit of each individual that writes an $18 check? Very doubtful.June 4, 2015 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #1087870
There is a big difference between the person himself living a life of luxury from said money and a shule getting some benefit from said money in the form of tzedaka. Just look at Herod.June 4, 2015 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #1087871
Newbee, so it’s okay for a shul/yeshiva to profit from ill-gotten funds?June 4, 2015 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #1087872
I believe the second beis hamikdash was funded from ill-gotten funds. Probably- this is not a halachic issue (unless your talking about chanufa, what issue hannah is there?). Is it the right thing to do? I dont know. But its a different story for the person himself to live a life of comfort and ease off those funds.June 4, 2015 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #1087873
how many people today have thousands of dollars of illegal funds from programs that a person is not entitled to? (cause of course he has more money then he reports & is really stealing from the government)
its really sad & a big chillul Hashem
welcome to the corrupt & dishonest generation, as the famous saying goes “if you live in the USA you are living in Sedom of todays day”
start doing teshuva now by removing yourself from programs not entitled to & you will see Hashem will give you more parnassa & you will manage great without the programs. Cause we all make what hashem says on rosh hashana only question is gift of free will i.e. can make $70,000 honestly or $100,000 dishonesty & get 30k of damage to your house or car etc… YOU GET TO CHOOSE if you go thru sad trouble & expenses you only caused it to yourself
HATZLACHAJune 4, 2015 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #1087875
I firmly suspect that if we were using only kosher funds for our yeshivos we would not lose a single child.June 4, 2015 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #1087876
Even if the money in the home was ill gotten?June 5, 2015 1:34 am at 1:34 am #1087877
Newbee, so if I understand you correctly, it’s OK to mug an old lady, cheat the government, and borrow money from a bank with no intention of paying it back as long as I give it to tzadaka?June 5, 2015 1:45 am at 1:45 am #1087878
lesschumras: No, you do not understand me correctly. I never said you can steal or mug old ladies.
Why do you think I said that?June 5, 2015 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #1087879
New be, those are all sources of Ill gotten gains. You stated that a person should not liv a life of ease butbsaw nobreason why while couldn’t benefitJune 5, 2015 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #1087880
Dude he said nothing of the sort
lets use this example
It’s a completely assur “profession” that doesn’t technically involve a loss to either participant (no stealing, mugging etc)
we know you can’t donate the money to the bais hamikdash. We know there is an inyun for a yeshiva to not take the money.
But you are asking
“Is there a chiyuv for the zoneh to get rid of the money to do a complete tshuva”-maybe donate to a charity that is not kodesh (ex orphans)”?
Al pi mussar , I would say yes, it’s kind of hard to say “I’m repentant” and then use the money to buy a car.
But does she have a chiyuv?
You just gave me a learning project for Shabbos, thanks!June 5, 2015 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #1087882
Lesschumras, you are conflating the act of theft with a third party benefiting from it, and thereby accusing newbee of saying something he never said.June 5, 2015 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #1087883
Is there is a difference between money gotten from working on Shabbos, Money obtained by casino (The richest Jew has gotten his money from Casinos) or money from Money Laundering or Drug Dealing?June 7, 2015 11:22 am at 11:22 am #1087885
More relevant now as American Pharoah just won the triple crown and his owners are frum. (They are Egyptian Jews)
They rented an RV and camped out by Belmont Park so they could see the race.
It seems that either the owners or the jockey went to the Ohel and also got a blessing from a Chabad RabbiJune 9, 2015 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #1087892
Please re-read the YWN CR rules:
2 – Loshon Hara will not be tolerated at all. We are not and will not become Lashon Hara central (keep this in mind when starting a thread).
Any further posts that violate the rules will result in the closure of this thread.June 9, 2015 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #1087893
They rented an RV and camped out by Belmont Park so they could see the race.
In my opinion, simultaneously making a kiddush Hashem and a chillul Hashem.
It seems pashut to me that his winnings are ill-gotten. The gambling part, which you also alluded to in your previous post, doesn’t bother me (maybe it should?).
The races were all run on Shabbos, which means the prize money is assur, and it’s assur to ride a horse in Shabbos, so also amira l”akum. Also, a race track is definitely not the most Shabbosdik’e place to be on Shabbos.
I can be dan l’kaf z’chus that he had some type of shtar mechirah worked out, but regardless, it’s at least maris ayin.June 9, 2015 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #1087894
Gambling is not a profession I think someone should get into and I dont think taking money from people in the gambling profession (and this includes owning casinos) is such a good idea. Unfortuantly these people who make money this way have alot to give and people are more than willing to take their money since they have alot.
IMO it was a chilul Hashem, not that they owned a race horse or that it was run on Shabbos, but there was an idea that a Race horse can get a bracha for a donationJune 9, 2015 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #1087895
IMO it was a chilul Hashem, not that they owned a race horse or that it was run on Shabbos, but there was an idea that a Race horse can get a bracha for a donation
Why is it not a chillul Hashem to race a horse on Shabbos?
As silly as you make it sound, is it so terrible to ask for a brachah to succeed in one’s livelihood?
I think you define chillul Hashem not by what is actually a chillul shem shomayim, but rather, what makes you personally embarrassed in front of non Jews or non frum Jews.June 9, 2015 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #1087896
Its one thing to ask for a Bracha to be a success for a normal job (Like a teacher)
However gambling isnt a normal livelyhood
If you have ever been to a Racetrack or most casinos (Las Vegas does get a higher class of people) you will see the people who hang out are not exactly chashuv people
Wasnt there some story of the Chofetz Chaim being asked to bless a lottery ticket and he refusingJune 9, 2015 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #1087897
Put it this way which is the Bigger Chilul hashem
A shomer Shabbos person who is a gambler,
A Mechalel Shabbos person who works as a social workerJune 9, 2015 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #1087898
It’s true that the bigger the person is, the bigger the chillul Hashem when he does somete wrong, but that wasn’t my question.June 9, 2015 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #1087899
To put it this way, I consider it a bigger Chilul Hashem when people say, Look how those jews act, they act all holier than thou and yet they act dispecable like getting blessings for a racehorse than someone who owns a small ice cream store open on Shabbos (And operates his store properly and honestly (Not known as a horrible person who cheats customers or acts miserably) and acts in otherwise respectful waysJune 9, 2015 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #1087900
You still haven’t answered my questions.June 9, 2015 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #1087901
Apparently English isn’t clear enough and common sense is not so common.
Thanks for trying, 127.June 9, 2015 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #1087902
This story is being discussed in many places including the other frum website. It is a major storyJune 9, 2015 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #1087903
Maybe but not in this specific context.June 9, 2015 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #1087904
It has been discussed in many contexts including the Shabbos issue.
The family has been pretty public about alot of these issuesJune 9, 2015 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #1087905
Kapusta, do you think such a public chillul Shabbos l”a should pass without comment?June 9, 2015 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #1087906
ZD, what does the family say about the Shabbos issue?June 9, 2015 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #1087907
I dont know the family, I do think they were at the track though (I saw a picture of the wife)June 9, 2015 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #1087908
Considering that Yom Kippur doesn’t cover Bein Adam L’chaveiro and this is a public conversation and that posting under an anonymous name does not put someone in any official capacity to comment on the matter, (even taking into account possible good intentions) I certainly do think it should pass without comment. And I sure wouldn’t want to be the one making the comment unless told explicitly by a rav.
Not that I’m c’v advocating any lessening of Kovod Shabbos, its simply beyond me how discussing open lashon hara (and unconfirmed suspicions no less!) is helping Kovod anything.June 9, 2015 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #1087909
I think it would have been an even bigger kiddush Hashem if Hashem would have drowned all the horses- Jewish owned and not – in the long island sound: ?? ?? ??? ????. Gambling ruins lives. It nearly destroyed a relative of mine.June 9, 2015 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #1087910
Not that I’m c’v advocating any lessening of Kovod Shabbos
No, not intentionally, ch”v, but that would be the result if what was a public act doesn’t get at least some type of public questioning (as I’ve said, I’m open to hear an explanation; I am more questioning (and stating that it seems wrobg to me) than attacking). I certainly think it should be pointed out that pashtus, what the public saw, a Jew having a goy do an issur for him and making money for a race run on Shabbos, is assur.
Do you want to take responsibility for someone thinking amira l’akum and s’char Shabbos are okay?
I appreciate your sensitivity, but I disagree, and think this should be discussed.June 9, 2015 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #1087911
DY, to answer your question. It’s not so pashut. If someone were to come to me as a school or a shul and make this offer: if I become mechalel shabbos, I’ll donate 20% of my profits, I would try to deter him from being mechalel shabbos. If I couldn’t, I certainly would not accept any donations.
However, what if the person was never shomer shabbos and his money was earned legitimately and honestly? I would agree with newbee that in this case I would accept a donation in that at least the money was being put to tzedakas. The yeshiva in Las Vegas has nearly 300 students in a beautiful building entirely paid for by Adelson. Without his money, these kids would be in public school. Better a yeshiva than donating money to Harvard or a museum.June 9, 2015 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #1087912
So the answer to your question, “Newbee, so it’s okay for a shul/yeshiva to profit from ill-gotten funds?” is yes, unless it was earned specifically to be donated?June 9, 2015 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #1087913
Yes, and as long as it wasn’t earned by breaking a secular law ( he’s already breaking a halachic law)June 9, 2015 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #1087914
I’m not sure I agree that an anonymous person offering an (uncomfirmed) opinion behind a screen name qualifies as making a public statement. And I do not believe Halacha differentiates between “stating what feels wrong to you” in public and attacking.
Actually, since no one appears to have asked for your specific opinion (certainly not in public), I think we could call your reaction a (well intentioned) sensitivity to Shabbos as opposed to clear outright Hilchos Shmiras Halashon.
I would strongly suggest that you ask a shaila before continuing, and at least have a warning be added to the thread title.June 9, 2015 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #1087915
LC, Why that distinction?June 9, 2015 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #1087916
Kapusta, what makes you think I didn’t ask? Also, I don’t think how public it is is important. I think people who are aware of what took place should be aware of the serious halachic issues involved, and whether ten or ten thousand people read the CR doesn’t change that, unless you’re suggesting that I should also take out an ad in Yated. 🙂June 10, 2015 2:58 am at 2:58 am #1087917
DY, this is my distinction. Being mechalel shabbos is wrong, but if they never had the education, it’s tinok shenishbar. But if they made their fortune illegally I wouldn’t accept it as a thief can’t claim he didn’t know theft is a crime. A person in my town wanted to donate a significant sum to the shul while under indictment for having stolen millions of dollars. The shul refused the gift, given its source. The person was convicted and sentenced to 20 years years in a Federal prison. On a side ( and sad note ) note, he asked to be sent to a camp at, I believe, Fort Dix as there were enough frum Jews there that they had both nusach sfard and ashkenaz minyanim. His request was granted.
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