Girls and Davening
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October 12, 2010 1:03 am at 1:03 am #592600nmamaMember
I just registered to the CR although I have been observing for months, because I want to get opinions on this topic. Recently I have been a guest in a number of homes, Shabbos and Yom Yov and noticed that many (over bas mitzvah) girls are not davening. They are waking up late, and then simply come to the table when the father comes home. The mothers, whom I gently questioned, explained that you can’t force them to daven- and they will let the girls come to it on their own. My question is- since, single girls who don’t have the achrayus of taking care of children, ARE, obligated in davening; is this the proper chinuch to allow them to come to the table without davening; or should parents insist on it?October 12, 2010 2:29 am at 2:29 am #790212sof davar hakol nishmaMember
neudmama, although you are 100% right, and since they’re not running a household they have no excuse not to daven… i do have to say, that i know of someone whose mother practically forced them to daven all her life, when she was younger and now, has a hard time davening (they daven but its a bit begrudging i would say). It really has to come on it’s own. you can’t shove yiddishkeit down their throat. On the other hand, they should be gently prodded and reminded about davening so they see it is important.
and, last but not least, the greatest teacher is by example. If the mother makes it her business to daven at least SOMETHING, and the father is always off to shul ON TIME, and it’s lived by example by the parents , the kids will take it in automatically.October 12, 2010 3:14 am at 3:14 am #790213
Sof davar gave a good answer. I might add that it could be that some girls don’t know they have a Chiyuv to daven. I think they should be told in a nice way that they have a chiyuv to daven. Also, I’m pretty sure they must daven before zman tefillah is over as well. To me, it looks like girls view Shabbos as a vacation and therefore sleep late and take it easy.October 12, 2010 3:24 am at 3:24 am #790214cofeefanMember
i used to be like what you described and one day i “woke up” (no pun intended) and realized that i have no excuse not to daven! if i want Hashem to answer me and give me all i want, and after i realized all Hashem does for me i was ashamed of myself! how could i sleep when Hashem is waiting for my tefilos! since then i try my best to allow myself enough time to daven wih good kavana. i wish i could say i go to shul every week but i can’t (yet) i hope i could work on myself and make up for the times i missed!October 12, 2010 3:49 am at 3:49 am #790215
Can you explain the mentality?
ThanksOctober 12, 2010 4:26 am at 4:26 am #790216sms007Member
i know a lot of people like this. I think its a maturing process kinda thing… Like when they were younger they didn’t chap how important it is and younger girls don’t really have the same feeling as older girls that hashem knows if we davened or not whether or not our parents saw… also younger girls don’t appreciate it as much since they’re still young. maybe i’m wrong, but that’s my guess. I could be totally off though…When i saw this I told myself I would daven with my kids when they are off from school from even the youngest age (even if its just singing little torah and shema or something) so they feel like its important, not just some thing we do in school. Let ya know if it works 😉October 12, 2010 12:58 pm at 12:58 pm #790218
Sof dovor said it right, set an example. Do women have to daven, no. But the Bais Yakov system teaches girls to daven. If a woman doesn’t daven, what will it look like to her boy children under 6, not yet in school? These little boys don’t see their fathers davening every day because the fathers are in shul (or should be anyway). The Jewish nation has always made education the prime goal of life. Chinuch is the most important aspect of a woman’s household. The Pesach Hagodoh says it all, “at psach lo” the woman should tell the little kids. However there should be a balance between the davening aspect and housework. A woman can’t really spend an hour on a daily shachris.October 12, 2010 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #790219
Shlomo and theprof1
Halachically girls and women must daven however women with babies who stay at home to care for them are allowed to say a tefillah ketzarah and some are completely patur if its totally not possible to daven because they are too busy with the children. However girls and women who aren’t busy with kids MUST daven.October 12, 2010 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #790220
I’ve only seen a single daas yachid, the Magen Avraham, that says women don’t have to pray the shemoneh esrei. This opinion has been severely criticized by many later acharonim. And he was an acharon; I’ve seen no rishon for him to rely upon. (Can anybody cite one?)
There ARE differences among poskim regarding when/how often women must pray.October 12, 2010 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #790221artchillParticipant
Where is the halachah written, isn’t it only a minhag?October 12, 2010 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #790222
The Tur in Orach Chaim siman 106 says clearly, noshim chayovin boh, on shemonei esrei. The Bach and Beis Yosef have no comment which means that they fully agree.October 12, 2010 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #790224
Rabbiofberlin. Hungarian and Galitzianer Jews who generally follow the same halachic patterns do not require females to daven plus many other mitzvos that they don’t emphasize at all. Generally the Polish chasidim did require females to daven at least brochos, krias shema and shemonei esrei, as I cited from the Tur, who states that halacho specifically concerning shemonei esrei, that women have a chiyuv. And as I stated, the Bach and Beis Yosef agree. Polish Jews who paskined like the Rav shulchan orech before ww2 now almost all paskin from the mishne brura. The Rambam, Rif, and Semag all hold that tefila is a d’ureisoh. Exactly what to say was instituted by the anshei keneses hagedolo. The machloikes between the Mogen Avrohom and others is on that basis. Everybody agrees that prayer itself is a mitzvas asei shelo hazman gromo and that females have a chiyuv. Mogen Avrohom says that since the exact method of prayer is miderabonon, females are potur from davening the official shemonei esrei, while everybody else says that since the concept of tefiloh is a d’ureisoh females have a chiyuv in the rabonon liturgy too. Hungarian and Galitzianer Jews who are generally lax in halochos concerning women accept that women don’t have to daven at all. ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? . This is the eaxct loshon of the mechaber.October 12, 2010 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #790225minyan galMember
RabbiofBerlin: You said “My humble opinion is that there is a divide between the Polish/Hungarian/Galician jews, who generally follow the Mogen Avrohom, where ,historically, women did not pray Shemonei Esrei at all, and the Lithuanian jews (possibly also the Russian jews), who have accepted the mishnei berurah- and who seem to have insisted that women should also daven fully.”
Do you think that this may be one of the reasons that many Conservative congregations became egalitarian? There is obviously something more to this move than the feminists wanted an equal opportunity and I am quite sure that the topic was hotly debated for a considerable length time.October 12, 2010 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #790226myfriendMember
Who cares “why” conservative or reform or feminist apikorsum did this or that?October 12, 2010 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #790228
Polish Jews before WW2 almost exclusively paskened like the Rav. When the mishne brura was introduced to Poland, the Gerrer Rebbe ztzl said, after actually urging his followers to buy it, that after a generation or two, Polish Jews will end up paskening like the mishne brura. In fact, a prominent Gerrer businessman and talmid chochom, R’ Avrohom Noach Klein, published a mishne brura with notes as to the differences with the Rav. The main psak in Orach Chaim has become the mishne brura.
The Mechaber and the Tur, when stating clearly that noshim are mechuyov, were talking in the context of davening shemonei esrei specifically. Most rishonim and achronim hold that tefilah, that is the chiyuv to pray to Hashem, is min hatorah. Those who say that it’s m’derabonon mean the actual tefilah liturgy of today which came from the anshei keveses hagedolah. The Mogen avrohom says thats ince the actual wording is miderabonon, that the chiyuv is not min hatorah, only to say any type of prayer. The others say that the rabonon established the liturgy but established it as the way to be yotzei the torah chiyuv. that means that even though the shemonei esrei is rabonon, the chiyuv to daven shemonei esrei, the actual wording, is min hatorah. and therefore since the torah tefilah is a mitzvas asei shelo hazman gromo, women have a torah chiyuv to daven shemonei esrei. Please do the research like I did and study the original documentation to see what I’ve written.October 12, 2010 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #790229minyan galMember
“Who cares “why” conservative or reform or feminist apikorsum did this or that? “
I happen to care very much and consider this a valid question. As a Conservative woman who attends minyan daily, this is an important issuefor me. When the shuls became egalitarian it took me many years to come to terms with the idea. Now I happen to be in favor of it and enjoy my davening and aliyot and occasionally reading from the Torah. It is not your place to cast aspersions on me or my beliefs – I have done nothing to you. People like you are divisive to Klal Yisroel. Would you prefer that I never attend shul or light Shabbas candles or continue taking Judaic study programs, etc, etc, just because being frum is not an option for me. If it is your lifestyle, I am happy for you and I have no desire to change your beliefs or to “convert” you to my way of life. I would appreciate the same courtesy. I am Jewish – just the same as you are.October 12, 2010 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #790230
Minyan Gal you are right and I say this as an Orthodox person, and I know I might get hit on by some commentors. The reason I think you should continue to daven etc. is because at least you have this constant connection to spiritual life, albeit not the way I’m doing it. And this makes it very easy for you to shift over to being Orthodox religious, you never know. I’m saying this from experience. I was teaching a conservative person, really dyed in the wool conservative. I did this without ever preaching or intimating that this person was wrong. I was completely non-judgmental. And after a year, this person decided to become “frum”, left the conservative shul, and joined an orthodox shul. Kashered the kitchen, changed the dishes etc.October 12, 2010 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #790231myfriendMember
Conservative and Reform are not Judaism. Their so-called synagogues are nothing but foreign churches. Whether you are “in favor of it” or not. It is not I who has cast aspersions on these foreign beliefs — it is the leaders of true Jewry that has. It isn’t a matter of lifestyle, but rather of the law given to Moses. You are Jewish, but you are not practicing Judaism.
Being frum is an option for everyone.October 12, 2010 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #790232
I agree being frum (Orthodox) is for everyone but not everyone is ready and when they are ready they become frum.October 13, 2010 12:00 am at 12:00 am #790233
Conservative, reform, orthodox…are all man made labels. What matters to Hashem is that you keep His Torah 100% as He commanded including all the laws as explained by the Rabbis in the Talmud. Labels don’t matter to Him.
However keep in mind that as long as a person is not keeping the full Torah (and they can) then they have not accepted Hashems rulership over your life. A servant who tells his/her master “I will pick and choose which of your commands I will listen to is not a servant and the master is not his master. The idea of Judaism is full submissiveness to G-ds will and commands. If one chooses not to serve G-d as He commanded but rather wants to do what they like they are serving themselves. This is tantamount to idolatry.July 26, 2011 3:27 am at 3:27 am #790236brotherofursParticipant
when i was younger i knew praying was important but i still needed my mother to tell me everyday, “did u pray?” -which helped me when i didn’t really want to.. now that i’m older i learned b”H how precious and good for us teffilla is. i don’t need any1 telling me. i don’t think the mother should push too hard, just a little until the girls pray without being asked because they realize how important it is.July 26, 2011 4:03 am at 4:03 am #790237yossiefMember
“Conservative and Reform are not Judaism.”
Very interesting comment.
First, let me say that I am Orthodox, and FFB.
Second, keep in mind that Hitler did not differentiate between Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Neolog, or any other kind of Jew. They all died side by side in Auschwitz.
Third, the HIAS, and NYANA, which are part of the Federation, mostly financed by Secular Jews, financed most of the newcomers who came here after WWII, and as far as I know, none of the Orthodox objected to getting Reform or Conservative money to start a new life. The HIAS also financed Jewish life in the Eastern Block Communist countries, and the Federation still supports Jewish life in the former satellite countries. If you don’t respect Reform and Conservative Judaism, at the very least, you owe the Hakoras Hatov, because your own ancestors were probably helped financially by them.
Remember, that there are plenty of GOYIM who hate all of us. We don’t need any Jew hating another Jew.
We also have a Kiruv Industry, that costs us many millions of dollars. The idea behind it is that there is always the Pintele Yid in every Jew. If that applies to someone who keeps nothing, shouldn’t it also apply to Conservative and Reform Jews who keep something according to their movement. I have heard of many cases where the children of Secular or non-religious Jews turned Orthodox. By the way, there are also cases of Orthodox parents having children who go off the derech. Do you think if Chas V’Sholom that happened to you, you would throw away your child? I know of one very prominent Rabbi, whose daughter married a Puerto Rican non-Jew, but she eventually got divorced and turned frum again. Should he have said she is not Jewish and throw her away?
Nobody knows what life holds for us, so let’s leave judgement where it belongs, to Hashem.
You misread his comment. He said the movements are not Judaism, not that the people are not Jews. 95July 26, 2011 4:13 am at 4:13 am #790238yossiefMember
As far as the original question is concerned, should girls daven, I think that should be left to the parent to decide and manage, in conjunction with the girl’s Yeshiva, and their Posek, if they wish to consult one. It is certainly not the business of any visitor who goes to someone’s house for Shabbos. I don’t believe you have any business “gently questioning” their mothers. If you did that in my house, while you were a Shabbos guest, I would gently tell you that it is none of your business. I certainly wouldn’t ask you if you davened or not.
Why are people always so concerned about what others do? Are you so perfect in your actions, that you have nothing to improve upon, and you can start on your neighbors and friends? Why don’t you just live and let live. If we all did that, this world would be so much better.July 26, 2011 10:01 am at 10:01 am #790239HereWeGoMember
“Why are people always so concerned about what others do?”
When I am a guest somewhere for Shabbos, I often question the parents simply because I want to learn from them. I go to different families to see what it is like to raise a family in different areas. I was curious to read this thread because I wanted to see different views. I really don’t think the question is at all hurtful. They made a decision to not push davening, and many people would not mind sharing why.July 26, 2011 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #790240happiestMember
I’m not sure if I should open another thread for this but if I should, please let me know.
I don’t daven because I have a lot of anger at GD right now for a lot of the things that are happening to me currently and that did happen to me in the past. But I’m wondering… maybe GD is doing these things to me because I am NOT davening. Is this a catch22?
I just can’t bring myself to do it for some reason. It’s a big deal for me if I say modeh ani in the morning because I don’t feel happy to be alive in the morning… am I making any sense?
And sorry again if this is the wrong place for this post!July 26, 2011 1:14 pm at 1:14 pm #790241
Women/girls are potur of mitzvos shehazeman grama, when time is of essence. Growing up in a Chassidishe home and from a very Hungarian background, my sisters and i still remember our mother, she should be well, coming into our rooms on days when there was no school and waking us up saying in Yiddish “look at the time, you are all sleeping and oiver on krias shema”. We did daven, but a shorter version, meaning after Birchas Hashachar we did Boruch sheamar, etc. As we grew older and going to Bais Yakov, davening became part of us. Understood, that mothers who are B”H raising large families sometimes only get to daven Birchas Hashachar and shema! Some girls tend to be lax when they leave school but after a while they pick up again. Try to look at the positive of what some of these girls currently not davening are doing…such as staying with sick patients in the hospital all night and coming home in the early morning and going to sleep while your were sleeping!!!July 26, 2011 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #790242
minyangal: Let me join the chorus saying that you are right and the official troll-in-residence is wrong again. Prayer is a very important mitzva, in fact easily one of the most important. If you attend minyan every day and make all the zmanim, you have a better record than many Orthodox. I won’t sugar-coat it by saying that I think you’re doing the right thing, because I don’t. As far as I’m concerned you are violating halacha in a way that has historically caused major divisions in the Jewish nation, but that doesn’t negate the fact that you are davening and I don’t see how a Jew can tell you to stop. Keep it up.
a- I’m currently giving shiurim to Jews with next to no Orthodox background. Can I pick your brain a bit about topics?
b- The Lithuanian/White Russian Jews paskened from the chayei adam who requires women to daven shmoneh esrei. Just another factor for the discussion.July 26, 2011 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #790243
“I don’t daven because I have a lot of anger at GD right now for a lot of the things that are happening”
I’m reminded of the Jews at Auschwitz who put God on trial for letting the Shoah happen. After testimony they found God guilty.
They then davened Maariv.
There are times when I have felt disconnected, lonely, tired, or angrey, and have only davened because I have been commanded to. Part of being Jewish is submitting myself to the will of HaShem, to the halachah. As others have noted, the overwhelming majority of halachic authorities have ruled that women are chayev to daven the Shemoneh Esrei. Our tefillah is our opportunity to connect to God, to talk to God, to plea to God, and even to beg of God. The Shemoneh Esrei is an absolutely brilliant text, beginning with an acknowledgement of to whom we are speaking, and continuing with a very logical ordering of requests. It includes an opportunity for us to each express needs, wants, desires, and petitions individually. I am not one to judge your situation, which may be far worse than anything that I have ever experienced, but when I have found myself in difficult circumstances, I have found that prayer does help.
I wish you the best.July 26, 2011 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #790244mw13Participant
“Why are people always so concerned about what others do?”
Do the words “kol yisroel arevim zeh la’zeh” ring a bell? How about “hochaich to’cheiach es amisecha”? We should most definitely be concerned about what others are doing.
I definitely think that post of yours deserves its own thread.July 26, 2011 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #790245CheinMember
ItcheSrulik: A woman is patur from formally davening.July 26, 2011 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #790246HaLeiViParticipant
Second, keep in mind that Hitler did not differentiate between Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Neolog, or any other kind of Jew. They all died side by side in Auschwitz
And half-Jews and Gypsies, as well.
I can’t understand this (common) idea of proving your point with the actions of the worst vampires to trample earth!July 27, 2011 2:20 am at 2:20 am #790247
Chein: See above. If you have a conflicting source, quote it.July 27, 2011 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #790248
“Chein: See above. If you have a conflicting source, quote it.”
His source is the Magen Avraham. But it is a Daat Yachid. And to quote it as if it is the halachah is to distort Torah. Among those who differ:
Rav Chaim of Brisk
“Women/girls are potur of mitzvos shehazeman grama”
Rambam and Shulchan Aruch say that tefillah is NOT a mitzvah asei shehazeman grama!July 27, 2011 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #790249
We already quoted the Magen Avraham. I was hoping she had another one since I don’t like arguing in circles.July 27, 2011 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #790250adorableParticipant
I daven almost every single morning but dont feel any emotions. I dont know how to explain it but I just dont feel like it gets me anywhere. I know you’re all going to tell me that of course Hashem hears and I see a tremendous amount of hashkacha in my life and I know its all from Him but when it comes to formal prayers I just cant!July 27, 2011 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #790251candy613Member
adorable! i really know exactly what you are talking about! Since I finished school, I have such a hard time motivating myself to daven, and when I do it’s like you said not so special. I am kinda at a loss of how to deal with it but its good to know a lot of other girls are in the same boat. I was talking to a friend of mine and we were trying to figure out can be done about this. Some ideas are to find a nice place to daven and daven there every day! She said she likes to daven outside in her backyard. I still haven’t found a solution though, so if anyone has any suggestions i would greatly appreciate it! And those who dont have such a problem- I understand that it is really not ok, but please dont judge it is very hard!July 27, 2011 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #790252adorableParticipant
wow! its encouraging to know that someone else feels the way I do. Its not that I dont daven but its that I like to daven on my own time and place….
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