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I’ve heard from a few friends that when dating girls you have to be very careful how you portray a boys yeshiva life. Girls generally are more idealistic then boys and also have a misconception about what boys(even good ones) do or don’t do as a bachur. We all have ups and downs and I think what bachurim sometimes do/don’t do doesn’t always reflect on who they really are and want to be. Should we really not be open and honest for fear that girls will misunderstand us and be scared away?
You should with out a doubt tell girls the truth! If your scared, say something like” this is just what i think….”or” my opinion is…”. Girls will appreciate the truth, not what they want to hear,but what is reality!
I don’t remember anything about yeshiva life that I had to be “not open and honest” about. If there’s something like that in your life, please work on correcting it. Also bear in mind that even if girls may have a misconception, your future FIL won’t, and he’s the one who will be supporting you. Finally, He Whose eyes ?????? ??? is even less prone to misconception….
You should make sure to always do things that you won’t be ashamed to to talk about. No excuses.
Wow – this is a great question!
Yes, girls are very idealistic, and they also don’t really “get” how boys spend hours upon hours talking about the same topic and how exhausting that can be. (Girls learn for hours a day, too, but we get to have different subjects, not just Gemara.)
If both boys and girls go into shidduchim knowing that these differences exists, and boys are honest yet sensitive to how the girl is going to react, then by all means he should be open. If he’s a mensch, she should accept what he has to say.
What are you doing that might scare them away? You are who you are, and should not pretend to be what you are not. If it would scare them away then either a) you are doing something you shouldn’t or b) they need to chill a little, because they are overreacting, in which case it probably would not be the right shidduch for you to begin with. Based SOLELY on the way you expressed your question, I would tend to think you are aware that you are doing something you probably should not be doing, or you would not be worried about it having a negative impact.
Or I am overreacting.
Hi msg.
You are right in that everyone has ups and downs. That is understood. But I dont think you should overly worry that someone will misunderstand something you may say and be scared away.
Remember, girls, for the most part, have a lot of brothers and they know in family life there are all kinds of ups and downs. They also learn that family loyalty remains through thick and thin.
You have no choice but to be real and honest. Dont think someone will be scared away. Being disonest and disingenuous are what will scare a girl away. They are smarter and more inuitive, and also have their ups and downs and may also worry if you may be scared away.
It will all work out.
Hatzlacha!
No, don’t be ridiculous. What happens in EY stays in EY.
Besides, she’s not telling you everything either.
To be fair, I think the OP is talking about the fact that some girls who come back from “sem” are idealistic and have no idea what real life is like. They, for example, expect a boy to be at davening exactly on time and to daven like he’s on fire every single day. If they hear that he comes late to minyan sometimes, that might kill a shiduch for that boy.
“some girls who come back from “sem” are idealistic”
Wow, is that an understatement. Think of it this way; the reason seminaries have a curview is not to protect them from the lures of streetlife.
Its to keep them from bumping into the “best boys in XYZ” that they will be paying oh-so dearly for in a year or two from now.
Of course you should be honest, what kind of marriage would it be if it started off without complete honesty?
Obviously you should try to be as sensitive as possible when relating whatever information this is, but not to tell at all? O dear god..
Msg91 – The right girl will like and love you for who you are, will appreciate your good qualities and understand your struggles. Most women are very forgiving and want to see the best in the person they are with. But, if you pretend to be someone that you’re not, she will feel misled when she figures it out and you will lose her respect, that’s a big hurdle to overcome. It’s harder to be supportive to someone that doesn’t approach a relationship with honesty. Women are more idealistic, but they are also human and all human beings have ups and downs. Sharing those times will make you closer, don’t be scared of it. That doesn’t mean tell her your innermost secrets on the first or second date, use your judgement and open up at the right time. If she can’t handle who you are for the good and the bad in the short term, how are you going to get through an entire life of ups and downs together? The guys at yeshiva don’t know that much about women or dating, even if they’ve been on a few dates or have sisters most of what they know is theoretical. You probably would be better off speaking to a married couple that you trust for dating advice.
There is a big rule I have heard of-never date a girl straight out of seminary-too many ideologies
I have to say i am surprised at the naivete of some of the posters – excessive drinking would be a more mild example of what goes on in yeshivos ans a lot of more idealistic girls would balk at that even though many guys do not do that once they are married – here a shaila should be asked in questionable situations because not everything needs to be said and some things need to be said at the right time. the most important thing is to makes sure you have a rav or at least a rebbi or a mentor involved who can provide you with guidance on these issue.
Dont be naive.
Us girls have had many instances in our teenage years in which we were less than proud of ourselves too.
What you should do is this: BE HONEST. Did you do anything that if you had heard this about her, you would break it off? Then tell her! She has every right to know!
We all went through that phase and stage in which we have made undesirable choices, but get over it! You have matured, and hopefully she will see that in you and get past it too.
put it this way – as a good, solid open minded girl – i wouldnt say no to a guy for regular things like watching a movie (within reason)or listening to the radio occasionally. but its like this – when a guy tells us that he goes to mincha early on shabbos so he can get in some learning – our hearts melt. and when he tells us that he was bored motzei shabbos so he watched a movie – our stomachs turn. thats just the way girls are….but u gatta be honest!so just make sure to say the good, mature things that you do too 🙂
Of course boys should be honest especially in dating. things like this are discussed at length and no- a guy shouldn’t just put everything he did or does out on the table and not explain himself. the girl won’t know what to think. if a bochur feels like it “doesn’t always reflect on who they really are and want to be” then they should explain that to the girl. if she can’t come to terms with it and respect that-then she’s not for you!
mamarochelcry:
Well said. One of my brothers sat me down in the beginning of my dating career and told me what most girls think of yeshiva guys. He then told me what really goes on. If a guy misses a minyan every so often, fine. If he’s waking up late and missing one more often than not, that’s when I would start getting worried.
“What happens in EY stays in EY. Besides, she’s not telling you everything either.”
Apparently it’s okay to enter into a marriage based on deceit. Don’t gush forth with every dumb thing you’ve ever done but don’t pretend like it never happened.
If you think your life is not one (s)he would approve of, change yourself or you don’t deserve her/him. Besides that you had better earn her father paying the bill.
The OP wrote “I think what bachurim sometimes do/don’t do doesn’t always reflect on who they really are and want to be”
So if the things you’ve done are truly in the past, you can often let them stay there.
It sounds to me, though, like you are referring to things bachurim sometimes do, knowing its not really right, and assume things will change once they marry. There’s the problem.
Habits die hard, and marriage is not a hospital. If you currently do not act in the way you portray yourself, forget about fooling her – you are very possibly fooling yourself.
A frum Erliche girl will never get to know boys!!!;) except the one boy she marries!!! Bekorov by all singles!!! May hashem guide you in the right path that is best for your needs! Hatzlocha!!! And always be truthful! Think ten times before you do anything… You not only have to face others with it you also have to face yourself and give a din ve cheshbon at the end of days. Your date/ your wife is not your confession booth!
Why not start a threat guys don’t know females!! B;)LOL!!!
Skipping night seder to play ball??
sorry if i dont see something really horrible in playing ball and skipping night seder if you really need to get excess energy out. once in a while fine as long as its once in a while
Regarding anything you are doing presently (both guys and girls):
If you honestly think it’s wrong, don’t do it.
If you honestly think it’s good for you, why would you hide it? If you honestly believe it’s good, you will be able to sell it well and (s)he will hopefully understand.
But know that the other person may disagree.
i totally agree with you being a girl i know that some of my friends think just because a boy is learning in yeshiva he is an absolute angel! generally a girl with brothers will kind of get a hint to as to what boys are really like (not angels at all) but close
Honesty is very important , however there’s no mitzva to go ahead and tell your date about all the the things you you have don wrong in your life. For example if your a guy who while in yeshiva have visited casinos and you realized that it’s wrong and you never went again and all around your a good guy. Well then don’t get up there on stage on a date and say ” you know shprintza I used to go casinos” what’s the point? However if u still do oh you better open ur mouth and tell her. You can switch casino for watching movies or anything of the sort and I feel the same way if you aren’t involved in the behavior anymore why bashmutz yourself , teshuva erases things from ones syche
i actually think its kind of nice when a guy says that he used to watch movies or catch a later minyan(or anything of the sort)but he worked on himself and now he doesnt anymore. that really shows us that hes growing and he wants to be better. in a way thats an even higher level than a boy who never had the nisayon. obviously the girl has to be smart and mature enough to understand that but personally i think most girls would be impressed!
This may sound weird, but I think that if the girl/the girl’s father is going to be paying top dollar for these boys, they need to know if they’re getting their money’s worth. It’s mercenary, I know, but it’s also geneivas daas otherwise. I’ve known of people who are fully supported by their in-laws and then sit around their $1,000 a month dirot in Yerushalayim and watch Jets games from their season ticket package. (Yes, true story.) Of course, a boy can come late to shacharis sometimes, but don’t pass yourself off as something you’re not.
Of course, that only applies to those specific situations. We don’t need to know every single little incident that ever happened to you, as long as you’re honest about your real self. For instance, my dad waited until after marriage to tell my mom all of his (admittedly hilarious) stories of his yeshiva days. Now he regales us with them at the dinner table, and my mom kinda looks like she’s not sure whether to laugh or not, and exactly what kind of a guy did she marry? But yes, we know you’re human, boys.
Also, just for one, I have only one brother who will be entering mesivta when I’m twenty. So I don’t know much about mesivta and bais medrash boys, so if I go out with you in five years and you went late to Shacharis even once, I’m going to think you’re some kind of delinquent and will immediately reject you. Just be warned.
“Everyone heard of the joke that when on the plane to EY the girls are watching movies while the boys are hunched over their gemaras, but on the way back it’s the opposite……Also I hear that’s why guys like the freezer, to settle down a bit.”
You do a disservice to yeshiva boys in the way you portray them. I hope it’s not true that boys use Israel as an excuse for freedom and to let go.
“It’s only for girls, who don’t know what a boys life is about, is it shocking to hear something’s that are the norm.”
Just because it’s normal for boys a certain age to act a certain way doesn’t make something okay. I always assumed Kollel is meant those who know what life is about and want to make their life Torah. How moser nefesh are you being if her father is paying for it? At least you should make yourself deserving of the check.
That being said, it’s okay to be human and to press snooze every so often or to need to get out once in a while by playing ball (and missing seder), if you really need it and not because you’re lazy or ch”vsh tired of learning.
Before you start dating, you should have an idea of the person you want to marry, and you should make yourself someone who you think that person would be proud of. Then there will be nothing to hide.
If you want to know, ask. If it is important that he on time to davening every day, she should ask him. If it is important that he is not a slob in the dorm, she should ask him. If there are things that are important to the boy, let him ask her. One would hope that honesty between the boy and girl is the only policy when it comes to shidduchim. Just never assume.
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