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November 7, 2021 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #2025160call me rabbi jParticipant
If you take a look at the boys and girls of this generation, most boys who had a bad past very easily was able to clear his reputation. When you look at the girls side, it can take many years for their reputation to be fixed. The question is why?November 7, 2021 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #2025777CL18Participant
Girls are more judgementle.November 7, 2021 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #2025756
I also though about this question a lot. I think it’s because when a boy goes off the derech or slips in his Yiddishkeit it takes a lot less nerve. When a girl stops being Tznius she had to actively go buy a short/tight skirt whereas a boy just accepted a cigarette from a friend or acted rowdy. Maybe because it’s in a boys nature to do non Toradik things? I don’t fully understand.November 7, 2021 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #2025793
It’s harder to be a good boy than to be a good girl. Boys have more expected of them. They’re expected to be on the path towards becoming a Talmid Chochom. Girls mostly have to keep out of trouble. If they know how to cook, sew and clean they’re already a top catch.November 7, 2021 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #2025792☕️coffee addictParticipant
Because the guy is at an advantageNovember 7, 2021 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #2025784November 7, 2021 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #2025785Are RosterParticipant
Reputation is only an issue regarding shidduchim and boys usually have the upper hand in shidduchim. I would be curious what the situation is in the Chassidish world.November 7, 2021 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #2025824
> and boys usually have the upper hand in shidduchim.
that is before they get marriedNovember 8, 2021 12:47 am at 12:47 am #2025838
Ujm- I disagree that it’s harder to be a good boy. I think that while it may be challenging to wake up for shul or learn it’s the same if not more difficult to dress Tznius, and act refined. Also, who knows how to sew these days?! (Besides our mothers) And in regards to Shidduchim, boys definitely have an upper-hand.November 8, 2021 5:59 am at 5:59 am #2025836
> that is before they get married
Does your wife wear the pants?November 8, 2021 7:40 am at 7:40 am #2025842
Men naturally desire forbidden things much more than women, especially in tayvoh issues. They are more proactive and assertive in realizing their desires as well So when a boy goes off, it’s obviously not alright, but the pull in that direction is very strong, and he has the proclivity not only to want it but to actively pursue it.
It takes more for a girl to engage in these things; she has to break down many layers of tznius and bashfulness among men that she grew up with. For this reason it’s harder to break the image of the “bad girl” than the “bad boy”, not that the averah itself is any less severe for either person involvedNovember 8, 2021 7:41 am at 7:41 am #2025847
I agree that if we were to compare the nisyonos themselves (tznius vs learning/davening) it might be a toss up. A possible proof that men “have it harder” is that chazal say “gadol hahavtacha”, the guarantee (of acquiring olam haba) that Hashem gave to women is greater than that which He gave to men, since men have to learn diligently to earn olam haba, while women just have to enable their sons and husbands to learn.
I think the communal thought process of being more willing to accept the shortcomings of men vs women is due to the aforementioned spiritual and emotional differences between the genders.November 8, 2021 10:52 am at 10:52 am #2025964user176Participant
A man can have more than one wife, and the concept of pilegesh exists. Many religious men drink and enjoy cigars and are often involved in olam hazeh in other ways. Many religious men wake up late, don’t necessarily always go to shul, don’t necessarily learn. The line between on and off the derech can be blurry for men. Women are very forgiving and understanding. The line for on and off the derech for women is clear cut.November 8, 2021 11:53 am at 11:53 am #2025974
user176: Are you comparing davening b’yechidus or smoking with going off the derech?November 8, 2021 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #2026031
User, there’s a lot to unpack in those statements. Smoking, especially casually, is widespread in the yeshiva world, and was common among roshei yeshiva until recently. One of the ziknei rosh yeshivos still smokes. it has nothing to do with going off the derech as far as i can see. At worst, it is a poor life choice and a possible violation of venishnartem meod es nafshosaychem (though continuing to smoke if one was unaware ot the danger is allowed according to most); it will also limit one’s success in shidduchim.
Being involved in olam hazeh, as you put it, doesn’t mean one is off the derech either – if someone is involved in futile pursuits that have no redeeming spiritual value, then it is against the Torah, and according to some rishonim is an issur asei of veahavta es Hashem elokecha. I would agree that here there is a connection – everyone who goes off violates this precept, but not everyone who transgresses it is off the derech.
Going off could be described as engaging in consistent behavior that is contrary to the minimal norms of Torah observance according to one’s upbringing. Meaning if an MO kid is with girls, his aveirah is of course unacceptable, but one cannot term him “off the derech”, since to him, this “lifestyle” isn’t a contradiction to shmiras hamitzvos, whereas such behavior definitely would place a mainstream student who is aware of the severity of this action in that group.
I’m not convinced that the line is clear cut for women, actually, the more I think about it, I believe it’s the opposite Women have a multitude of dress choices, none of which make a statement necessarily about their frumkeit, whereas a man who wears even a grey suit has made a statement about where he sees himself, certainly if he’s wearing colored shirts, tan, green suits etc.
Women are also encouraged to engage in hobbies and have interests. Their viewpoints are also more “open minded” and they are not held accountable for deviant hashkofos, because people don’t notice them..men are taught by rebbeim not to be medayak and address hashkofic problems in what women say on dates, because “they don’t learn gemara, so how can you expect them to have daas torah?”. Of course there is a line drawn regarding things like feminism, or castigation of rabbinic authority.November 8, 2021 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #2026084GadolhadorahParticipant
While UJM repeats his mindless, worn-out rants about keeping young women uneducated and
“in the kitchen”, thousands of young jewish women with non-misogynistic and supportive parents are marrying bnai torah and are able to find good-paying jobs to support their families. In today’s world BOTH men and women starting out have equally challenging agendas, albeit on different issues.November 8, 2021 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #2026118
Avira DeArah wrote my thoughts more eloquently than I was able to but that’s what I was trying to express.
I don’t think it’s clear cut either way. Most (not all) of the things that would classify someone as OTD are more private these days.November 8, 2021 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #2026123user176Participant
I’ll admit, I am naive. Though I don’t see colored shirts for men as an issue and don’t see why it would be problematic anywhere or to anyone, in terms of Halacha.November 8, 2021 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #2026156
This ties into shidduch crisis explanation that I find most plausible: a boy tries to be a T’Ch, while a girl wants to marry a T’Ch. Current educational system is great at inspiring everyone – boys to learn and girls too, but it can not miraculously make everyone into a T’Ch. So, naturally, less boys are successful in becoming a T’Ch than girls developing an interest in marrying T’Ch… The only way out of this, without changing attitudes, is dress code and grade inflation – making everyone look like a T’Ch so that everyone is happy.November 8, 2021 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #2026157
Gadolha, you’re referring to the material side of things; this whole conversation thusfar has been about spiritual nisyonos, so if you want to argue with ujm about domestic responsibilities this isn’t the time and placeNovember 8, 2021 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #2026176
User – there is absolutely no halachik obligation to wear black/navy and white; these are the identifying characteristics of the current day yeshiva world, but are not obligatory in halacha. Wearing a hat while davening or for shabbos is an obligation according to many poskim, but those who don’t have what to rely on.
What I meant is that the way a man dresses is a clear “statement” regarding how he associates himself. A man, especially under 40 (the yeshiva world adopted this universal mode of dress about 30 years ago) who wears colored shirts, light suits etc, is communicating that he sees himself in the “baalhabatish” world, or MO. I’m not saying this is right or wrong – I personally don’t have an opinion on the matter, but this is the current state of affairs.November 8, 2021 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #2026186
Avira, non-white button-down shirts were still quite common in the heimish and to a slightly lesser extent even in the Yeshivish worlds 15 years ago.November 9, 2021 8:47 am at 8:47 am #2026214takahmamashParticipant
“Current educational system is great at inspiring everyone . . . .”
AAQ, if you really believe this, you’re living in a fantasy world.November 9, 2021 11:53 am at 11:53 am #2026276
takah: in my experience, most kids are inspired in Jewish schools. It works well at elementary level if you get a decent principal who weeds out bad apples from teachers. I would send my kids again to the same schools they were going. As kids gets older, there are more failures in what and how they teach.
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