“Give me liberty or give death”!

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  • #1923600

    Unless there is a virus with a 98% survival rate. In which case strip me of my job, my freedoms, my constitutional rights, and put me under house arrest.

    #1923753
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Maybe it should be “Give me liberty and give me death”. If you have liberty not to watch for corona, you can die ch’v.

    #1923756
    akuperma
    Participant

    A 98% survival rate would mean a 2% mortality, e.g. in the United States about 7 million, or in Israel about 160,000. That would definitely requires special measures, especially if it impacted on all ages rather than the elderly. In the US, it appears that Covid19 results in about 1/10 of a percent mortality.

    Note that for testing vaccines, they changed the definition of having Covid19 to require not only testing positive, but having symptoms, and the even the placebo was 99% effective (though vaccines seems to reduce the chance of serious symptoms by 90%).

    #1923765
    Tachles1
    Participant

    @torahvaluesoverparty

    No need to work. Just watch all the hospital staff dance, and waste PPE on tiktok. Better to be poor so they can dance on social media, than have a functioning economy!

    #1923766
    Health
    Participant

    TVOP –
    Wait that will come over Biden, if he wins in SCOTUS!
    He’s knows Medicine, just like all the Government agencies.

    #1923784
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @torahvaluesoverparty What a ga’vadicke comment! Because you are young and healthy, you have no problem condemning people to die?!

    #1923785

    Most of us are adults, understand the risk of covid, and can act accordingly when going about business. The same way we all understand the risk of driving a car. This disease can kill, but it’s not exactly the bubonic plague, nor is it ebola. Lockdowns have their own side effects as well. And haven’t at all proven effective.(if it was effective, countries wouldn’t currently be locking down for the third time). Point is this virus poses little-to-zero risk for most of the population. Not ch’v to say I don’t care about those who it affects. But to say that we are adults and those to who the virus is a great risk, can take precautions as they see fit. I wouldn’t say this 9 months ago when we didn’t know anything about this virus. But enough is enough these lockdowns have pretty awful side effects, and that needs to be recognized. There is no reason for our constitutional rights to still be suspended.

    #1923946
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Give me liberty or give me death”

    what an interesting maamar chazal. Where can it be found? is it Bavli? Yerushalmi? Medrash?
    Are You sure we pasken that way Lemayseh? I cant seem to find it in Shulchan Aruch

    #1923963
    catch yourself
    Participant

    It seems to run counter to Da’as Torah.
    Halacha prefers life to death in nearly all cases, however poor the quality of life.
    Klal Yisrael said טוב לנו עבוד את מצרים ממותנו במדבר.

    #1923988

    Ubiquitin, catch yourself
    Your replies are based on the assumption that either we get our liberty, or everyone is put in great danger. Which is completely false. These lockdowns at this point are purely politically motivated. Look at the actions of so many Democrat leaders-Deblasio, Gavin newsom, Nancy Pelosi, Lori lightfoot and some more -they preach their “safety motivated” restrictions , and then go violate them themselves. States, that have been open,(florida, texas..)have not seen any significant spikes any more so than blue states. And I’m curious, according to your words, is one not allowed to drive a car, being that there is a risk to do that? I dont think so. I’m pretty sure the line would drawn between something that carries significant risk vs something that carries little risk. So again, you will base your replies based on “covid is a death sentence” -which is completely false.

    #1923995
    charliehall
    Participant

    “It seems to run counter to Da’as Torah.”

    Not just today’s Da’as Torah but the Torah itself, the Naviim, Chazal, Gaonim, Rishonim, and Acharonim.

    Judiasm is not about rights at all it is about obligations. And we are required to protect ourselves and not to endanger others. “Liberty” in Judaism means the freedom to fulfill these obligations, not the freedom to do whatever we please no matter what the consequences to others.

    #1924040
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @charliehall, your point of view runs counter to the basis of modern orthodoxy.

    #1924072
    catch yourself
    Participant

    @charliehall, of course you’re right. I was only using the phrase “Da’as Torah” because it had previously been used in this thread.

    Just like you said, Judaism says nothing about our rights. The Torah speaks of our responsibilities and obligations. The “freedom” of the Torah, חירות על הלוחות, is the freedom to rise above the physical, subjective nature of man. It is the liberty to view ourselves and the world objectively, to serve Hashem without our own petty desires and selfishness getting in the way.

    @commonsaychel, what are you referring to?

    @torahvaluesoverparty, regardless of whether any specific restriction is justified, Patrick Henry was wrong. I’m not even sure I understand the point of your last post; do you mean to say that since certain politicians are pushing their own agenda, we should prefer to die than to listen to them? What do you think it meant to go back to מצרים? Is it worse to suffer the consequences of a lockdown than to endure the cruelty of פרעה?

    Honestly, sometimes I think people are so blinded by allegiance to their party that they conflate its platform with Torah values. What, then, of your username?

    #1924082
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    charlie, it says that listening to the Torah is the true freedom חרות על הלוחת אל תקרא חרות אלא חרות not as ‘o’ sound, meaning the letters carved, under the ches but ‘ei’ meaning freedom. A person controlled by the yetzer hara, bad inclination, is not really free.

    #1924154

    First of all the point of this thread was to say that these lockdowns are unconstitutional. There are many things in the Torah that would be deemed unconstitutional. Secondly, you all have to explain where the line is drawn. You all have to explain why, according to daas torah, one is permitted to drive a car when there is a risk to yourself, and others, in doing so. To me, the answer is simple. Hashem wants us to live a normal life. Not do crazy things that put one in danger. Driving a car a low risk. Not being careful with a plague such as Ebola is reckless. But when we have virus with a 98% survival rate, those who are not at risk shouldn’t be stuck at home not feeding their families. Those who are at risk can be responsible to protect themselves as they see fit. I don’t think that living an abnormal life for a year straight, for no reason other than to please your local tyrant Democratic leaders, what Hashem wants.

    #1924204
    emes nisht sheker
    Participant

    TVP, you are focused on a subset of the issues and thereby it is easy to spout what you are spouting.

    Science is not simple and is evidence based (which means that opinions will change, such as with masking, how much of a shut-down, how long to quarantine, and whether schools can be safely kept open).

    In March we saw a virus that spread very quick and was quickly overwhelming hospitals. The reaction to shut things down was conceived then, based on what other places had done already.

    Over the following months and even currently we see a virus that does not seem as bad or perhaps the treatment is better. Very hard to say.

    But history will tell you, that during the Spanish Flu Pandemic there were multiple waves and each one had differing outcomes. To assume this virus can’t get worse is simply ignorant.

    All very nice for one person to say it is no big deal. Most Doctors who study this don’t have that naive confidence you and others do. It would seem that they advocate keeping social distancing, wearing masks and trying to mitigate the virus until a vaccine can be introduced and we see transmission go effectively to zero. Oh, and that vaccine is probably more likely to be effective the less strains of COVID-19 going around… Another reason to reduce transmission outside a vaccine as it will likely make that vaccine more effective and allow life, for those impacted by this, to get back to normal.

    The flip side, like you, you can disagree. But let’s consider the consequence if the virus turns as bad as it was back in March or perhaps turns worse. The more people that have the virus and the less careful they are the more opportunity for deadly strains to emerge and spread.

    Really, your complaints and whining about this, should have you consider this instead on a societal level and talk with doctors that are concerned about this and try to understand why. Of course, it is easy to sit in shul and ignore the numerous people who died (I kept track of the people I know that died from this and the number is staggering high in our community! We failed. There is nothing to be proud of how we dealt with this, unless you live in some sick and twisted world where having so many die and being the hardest hit community, probably in the world by this, is something to be proud of) and say the high-risk should lock themselves up and everyone else make believe everything is great.

    #1924209
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Torahval,  The Torah requires us to do everything possible when it comes to pikuach nefesh as safek pikuach nefesh trumps Shabbos and Yom Kippur. When tzadikim of all ages are dying all over, we have the utmost responsibility to protect ourselves and others in anyway possible.

    Edited

    #1924252
    Health
    Participant

    RE -“When tzadikim of all ages are dying all over, we have the utmost responsibility to protect ourselves and others in anyway possible.”

    I agree. E/O should take Zinc + HCQ. If they would have promoted that at the beginning, for anyone presenting with a Severe Case, not just Tzadikim, but anyone that takes it, we wouldn’t have “of all ages that are dying all over”!
    It has to be taken within 5 days of onset of symptoms.

    #1924414
    catch yourself
    Participant

    @torahvaluesoverparty
    “First of all the point of this thread was to say that these lockdowns are unconstitutional.”

    You’re certainly entitled to your opinion. Without expressing my own, I would simply note that there is a legitimate debate to be had on the topic.

    “There are many things in the Torah that would be deemed unconstitutional.”

    What does the Torah have to do with the Constitution?

    “Secondly, you all have to explain where the line is drawn. You all have to explain why, according to daas torah, one is permitted to drive a car when there is a risk to yourself, and others, in doing so. To me, the answer is simple. Hashem wants us to live a normal life. Not do crazy things that put one in danger. Driving a car a low risk. Not being careful with a plague such as Ebola is reckless.”

    Correct. The line is שומר פתאים השם.

    “But when we have virus with a 98% survival rate, those who are not at risk shouldn’t be stuck at home not feeding their families. Those who are at risk can be responsible to protect themselves as they see fit. I don’t think that living an abnormal life for a year straight, for no reason other than to please your local tyrant Democratic leaders, what Hashem wants.”

    The point here is that the Torah requires us to follow the law, even if it is unreasonably restrictive. If the law requires us to lock down, the Torah requires us to follow suit. This is not because of health considerations, but because of דינא דמלכותא. We don’t have to like it, but we have to do it.

    In all your talk, you still haven’t refuted the basic point that the Torah does not support the idea that liberty is more important than life.

    #1924612
    Avi K
    Participant

    The cure might be worse than the disease. Destroying people’s livelihoods is akin to killing them. There are also mental health issues and rises in domestic violence. The way to go is the Swedish way coupled with scaled protections for at-risk people depending on degree of risk or non-risk. For example, people with type O blood at much less at risk and paradoxically a new Israeli report shows that asthma sufferers are less at risk (they put it down to a lower concentration of ACE receptors, which transmit the virus to the rest of the body).

    #1924667
    Abba_S
    Participant

    Many people believe Covid is a hoax and most of the people who died from it had other health issues. They just want thier live back and there is a minimal chance of death.
    Lock downs, masks and social distancing aren’t a cure. They just slow down the rate of infection. What is needed is testing and vaccinating those who don’t have antibodies for covid until we get herd immunity.

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