Giving Alcohol to Minors on Purim

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  • #1062909

    Jothar
    Member

    Volvie, I opened the sifrei halacha and didn’t FIND these “100% valid poskim who hold one should drink himself to the floor”. The ball is in YOUR court to find the mainstream poseik who backs up your view of the mitzvah. I quoted EVERY nosei keli on the pages of the Shulchan Aruch, and the ones in the back. I also quoted the poskim acharonim. I can’t find ANY who say that today one SHOULD be mekayem it “kepsheuto”. Please tell me who I missed. As I’m just a balabos, I’m sure there must be some lamdan in your beis midrash who knows the source for a “held-of poseik” who says one SHOULD drink himself to the floor. No such poseik in the Tur, Shulchan Aruch (Mechaber is pashtus agreeing with what he wrote in the Beis Yosef), mishna brura, aruch hashulchan, etc. “Oilem goilem” or “everybody does it” is not a poseik in my book. The mishna brurah is, and he disagrees with you. I can’t admit to a fact if no poseik I look at agrees with it.

    The only tzad is the chayey Adam (who is NOT the yeshivishe olam’s poseik- the mishna brurah is). He says “chayav adam lehistaker, ulekol hapachos yosier mekedei ragilo”, but even he adds that 1. One who would be mezalzel in a mitzva shouldn’t get drunk and 2. One’s actions should be lesheim shomayim. As minors are much more likely to be mezalzel in mitzvos when they get drunk, one can’t even claim it’s a mitzvah according to the Chayey Adam.

    But, as pointed out, the MAJORITY of poskim hold there is no MITZVAH to do so, and according to many it’s an aveirah. So giving alcohol to someone who already had alcohol (assuming it’s the daytime, when there’s a chiyuv to drink) is a KULA, not a chumra, since according to most mainstream poskim there is no mitzvah to drink more, and according to the mishna brurah (THE poseik for the yeshivishe olam) one SHOULDN’T drink more. At night, of course, when there is NO mitzvah, then getting drunk is like any other day and it completely assur.

    #1062910

    volvie
    Member

    Jothar, You are debating your straw-man again. You falsely attributed quote “100% valid poskim who hold one should drink himself to the floor” is not mine. The Seder HaYom was quoted to that effect by a poster.

    If straw-men are your thing, have fun.

    Gut Shabbos & Ah Freilichen Purim!

    #1062911

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    To say categorically the Chayei Odam is not the Yeshiva Olams posek is simply a lack of Knowledge. Much of the litvishe Olams Mesorah is based on the Chayei Odam/Chochmas Odam (one and the same, ask anyone whoi has learnt Hilchos Niddah.

    Besides For the Seder Hayom that I have qouted before I would add the Ben YeHoYado (ben Ish Cjai) as one who learns the Gemora K’pshuto. Look it up ( Ben Yehoyada is perhaps the primary mefaresh of Aggadita)

    #1062912

    Jothar
    Member

    Ben Levi, for Orach Chaim the yeshivishe velt follows The Mishna Brurah. As he did not write on Yoreh Deah we follow the Chayey Adam, Pri Megadim, and Aruch Hashulchan, along with the psakim of Rav Moshe Feinstein zt”l. The Pri chadash also reads the gemara kepshuto, but says as we are mekulkal we shouldn’t follow it. Rabbeinu Ephraim does as well, but says it’s not lehalacha. I do not know what the Ben Ish Chai says lehalacha, but as I’m a litvak not a sefardi it’s irrelevant.

    Volvie, if I’m attacking a straw man, what IS your position? how much should one drink? I’m sure you agree with kol hani poskim I quoted, so I’m interested in hearing what you ARE espousing, and why it’s therefore muttar to give a drink to a minor.

    #1062913

    bombmaniac
    Participant

    can we all stop trying to find ways to justify our teivos and just work on correcting them???

    #1062914

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Jothar first off you forgot the Rambam from your list of “mainstream” Poskim as well as the fact the Aruch HaShulchan seems to understand that the Shulchan Aruch learns Lmase that one must get drunk ( Aruch HaShulchan Siman Tuf Reish TZadik Hey Siman Hey.

    Regarding Chayei Adom, until the Mishna Berura came out chayei adom was cosidered the “Da’as Achron” the reason the Mishna Berura took its place is because it was more comprehensive as well as the indisputed status of the Chofetz Chaim as the Gadol HaDor.

    As to what my Rabbeim held, Exactly what they did , One is required to get Drunk to the point of complete inebriation.

    As an interesting aside it is noteworthy that the name of one of the senior Roshei Yeshivos in America is missing from the Kol Korei against drinkig beer, upon ivestigating the matter I was told that he held because in many Yeshivos including when he was a Bochur by Rav Aaron Bochrim drank whisky it was established as a Minhag Yeshivos “Kol Midi D’mishaker” ( in theory I would think the origins is of this would be because of the simple fact that in Europe they did not have wine, just speculating)consequently He did not feel Himself to be of a stature to sign against a minhag.

    I questioned a close Chaver of this Rosh Yeshiva (and Odam Gadol in his own right) as to whether it was true and he told me I did not see it as I don;t read the papers and did not ask him but I could’ve told you he would not sign such a staatement The Frediker Gedolim saw many of us drinking whisky on Purim to be mekayim the Mitzva and never said anything he will not open his mouth where hi Rabbeim did’nt.

    Again to say that Gedolai Oilam did not hold of getting Drunk is ridiculas to say that other Gedolei Olam did not hold of it is ridiculas as well.

    Each person must follow his Mesorah, his rabbeim and again I would highly recommend Rabbi Yossi Rosenbergs article in this weeks Yated to all those who think drinking was never a part of Purim and the act initself is a Chilul Hashem.

    #1062916

    Jothar
    Member

    Drinking IS a part of Purim, and is a core part of the mitzvah. Drinking to sechok and holellus instead of simcha is not, and drinking to the point that one is mevatel mitzvos isn’t either. I look forward to reading Rabbi Rosenberg’s column, but i would like to see what he does with the consensus of poskim who hold that the common “rolling on the floor in vomit”-type drinking is completely assur, and is not the mitzvah. Even the chayey Adam holds that drinking where one ends up being mevatel brochos, bentching, maariv etc is completely assur. Passing out before bentching is completely assur (and yes I spent many years in yeshiva so don’t tell me this doesn’t happen).

    #1062917

    Just-a-guy
    Member

    Giving alcohol to minors, particularly those who are not your children, is never, ever a good idea. Charles Hynes does not hold by your Rav.

    Happy Purim and Good Shabbos everyone.

    #1062919

    bombmaniac
    Participant

    personally i see nothing wrong with giving an older minor a cup or maybe even two of wine at the seuda…but ONLY at the seuda, and ONLY if they have had no other alcohol AT ALL on purim. actually…come to think of it…i think that should apply to everyone…not just minors:D

    #1062920

    volvie
    Member

    Jag, Charles Hynes doesn’t hold by your Rov, but Charles Hynes does hold by the law. And the minor alcohol law specifically exempts all alcohol utilized for religious observance OR if the parent provided authorization for its consumption (even if not for religious observance.)

    Remember, it is not illegal to get drunk. It is illegal to drive if drunk.

    #1062921

    bombmaniac
    Participant

    i do not believe getting drunk is covered by religious observance under law…seeing as getting drunk isnt covered by religion itself…

    #1062922

    volvie
    Member

    Getting drunk IS a religious obligation on Purim. Sure, some may hold of other shittos, but secular law allows the freedom of religion to abide by any shitta. The law cannot make a distinction and force one shitta over another. Indeed it would be unconstitutional for the law to to decide a religious matter.

    Bottom line is that it is within the law to get drunk on Purim.

    #1062923

    bombmaniac
    Participant

    lol i dont think the law would allow you to get a minor drunk, they do make allowences for religious rituals…but i believe you would have some trouble if you got a minor drunk…kind of like if a rastafarian gave a minor weed…and got him high…i believe they would get in trouble as well.

    #1062924

    ZachKessin
    Member

    <i>Getting drunk IS a religious obligation on Purim. Sure, some may hold of other shittos, but secular law allows the freedom of religion to abide by any shitta. The law cannot make a distinction and force one shitta over another. Indeed it would be unconstitutional for the law to to decide a religious matter.</i>

    You might want to look up the court case “Reynolds V United States” (1878) The court held that despite the first amendment the government could restrict acts that may have bearing on religious practice. In that case it was polygamy but I suspect that giving large quantities of drink to a minor would fall under that precedent.

    If you are going to drink on Purim please be safe about it!

    #1062926

    volvie
    Member

    “The court held that despite the first amendment the government could restrict acts that may have bearing on religious practice.”

    The Court in 1878 held it could do so, but in the case of alcohol, the legislation in effect as current law of the land specifically states the will of Congress and the legislature is that they have chosen not to – and rather specifically allows it.

    #1062927

    Jothar
    Member

    Volvie, Getting drunk is NOT a religious obligation. Drinking- yes. Getting drunk, no. My yeshiva suspends drunk high school kids. Open up a Shulchan aruch or mishna Brurah, or ask your local beis midrash masmid to read the nosei keilim for you.

    #1062928

    oomis
    Participant

    Whatever we think about our interpretation of the law, if a minor (under 21) gets drunk and causes an accident, the civil law will comes down VERY HARD on him and possibly also the person who gave him the liquor, religious observation or no religious observation. The law (as it applies to Orthodox Jews)was intended not to interfere with parents giving their minor children kiddush on Shabbos and Yom tov, and THAT’S ALL.

    #1062929

    volvie
    Member

    Jothar, Sorry to burst your figurative bubble, but getting drunk is indeed a religious obligation for us Yidden. As stated in Shulchan Aruch, Rambam, Mishna Brura, and numerous numerous Seforim HaKedoshim – not to even mention a befeirush Gemorah. And as openly and happily practiced by the Gedolim shlita and zt”l.

    And judging from what I’ve seen thus far throughout this vast city, both indoors and outdoors, our Acheinu Bnei Yisroel are fulfilling this Mitzvah with great detail!

    Ah Freilichen Purim!

    #1062930

    Josh31
    Participant

    Volvie, it is not even noon yet.

    Drinking is part of the Seudah.

    No one has their Seudah before noon, unless it is Friday.

    If you are in Yerushalayim, it is not yet Purim there.

    If you are in Bnei Brak, what are you doing on the internet???

    #1062931

    volvie
    Member

    Gemara Megillah 7b:

    ??? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????

    ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????

    ?????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??????

    “Rava said: A person is obligated to become intoxicated on Purim until he does not know the difference between ‘Cursed Be Haman’ and ‘Blessed Be Mordechai.’

    Rabba and Rabbi Zera made their Purim feast with one another. They became drunk; Rabba arose and slaughtered Rabbi Zera. The next day, he asked for mercy for him, and caused him to live.”

    The Rif, Rosh, and Tur simply cite the Gemarah from Rava lehalacha, without elaboration.

    Shulchan Aruch:

    ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????

    Shulchan Aruch [Directly quoting the gemara]: One is obligated to [get drunk]

    Rambam:

    ???? ??

    ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???, ????? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ??????.

    Chazal:

    Wine has potential for good and bad. Chazal mention this idea in many places. Getting drunk, if done properly, is an important mitzvah.

    For 364 days a year, we have no other choice. Our mind must exercise complete control over our emotions and behavior, lest the animal in us rage rampant and trample to death all that is good in ourselves and our world. Furthermore, we need the mind not only as guardian and regulator, but also as facilitator of our highest potentials. It is the mind that navigates the workings of nature, enabling us to sustain and improve our lives in the service of our Creator; it is the mind that recognizes the goodness and desirability in certain things and the evil and danger in others, thereby guiding, developing and deepening our loves and aversions, our joys and fears; it is with our minds that we imbibe the wisdom of the Torah, allowing us an apprehension of the divine truth.

    If the mind does all these things within the finite parameters of reason, concealing galaxies of knowledge with every ray of light it reveals and suppressing oceans of feeling with every drop it distills, it remains the most effective tool we have with which to access the truths that lie buried in the core of our souls and reside in the subliminal heavens above.

    But there is one day in the year in which we enjoy direct, immediate access to these truths. This day is Purim. The Jew who rejoices on Purim–who rejoices in his bond with G-d without equivocation–has no need for reason. For he is in touch with his truest self–a self before which his animalistic drives are neutralized, a self which requires no medium by which to express itself and no intermediaries by which to relate to its source in G-d.

    The Jew who rejoices on Purim no longer requires the mind to tell him the difference between “cursed be Haman” and “blessed be Mordechai”; he is above it all, relating to the divine truth that transcends the bifurcation of good and evil. For the Jew who rejoices on Purim, the mind is utterly superfluous, something which only encumbers the outpouring of his soul, something which only quantifies and qualifies that which is infinite and all-pervading. So he puts his mind to sleep for a few hours, in order to allow his true self to emerge.

    #1062932

    oomis
    Participant

    There are very few Jews in the world who can get shikker strictly l’shem mitzvah, and you and I both know it. The VAST majority of people who are drinking, do so, because Purim is “legal” for them, not because they are on such a high madreiga of holiness that their SOLE intention is to be mekayeim the mitzvah. Maybe at one time, Jews were on such a level, but now, the attempt to fulfill this mitzvah does NOT lead to good things for too many people. And given that many of today’s mainstream Rabbonim pasken that it is assur to get THAT drunk, and also given the fact that there are people here who are continually saying that the chumros of today are necessary because of all the hashpaa of the goyishe velt or new knowledge that we have about things (so that kulos of olden times vis a vis stuff like worms in fish, should not be held, but we should be more strict, based on our present Gedolim), it seems mighty odd to me that the ONE thing you guys are holding onto from the past is ad d’lo yada yada yada. I’m just sayin’….

    #1062933

    volvie
    Member

    That is completely and absolutely 100% incorrect. Indeed, the polar opposite of reality.

    The fact of the matter is the vast majority of people do and can get shikker strictly l’shem mitzvah. And it is far far far from the “ONE thing you guys are holding onto from the past.” In fact we are holding steadfast to all 613 Mitzvos “from the past.”

    Of course, perhaps, you live in some parallel universe where unfortunately the folks you associate with are not l’shem mitzvah. But that is a world I don’t know. Where I come from, there are literally tens or hundreds of thousands of l’shem mitzvah Yidden. On this mitzvah and every mitzvah. Another possibility is where I see the light you see darkness. But since it is Purim today, lighten up!!!

    AH FREILECHEN LICHTIGE SHIKKERIN PURIM TZU ALLE HEILEGE YIDDEN!!!

    #1062934

    bombmaniac
    Participant

    once again…there is a difference between shikkur, and stoned drunk…plastered…vomiting…stumbling…falling…drunk.

    #1062935

    charliehall
    Participant

    Reported on YNET today:

    EDITED

    #1062936

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolfish Musings is pleased to report that, despite Volvie’s opinions, he did not get drunk this Purim (in fact, due to other obligations he had, he didn’t drink at all) and did not give alcohol to any minors (or anyone else, for that matter).

    The Wolf

    #1062937

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Nor, I should point out, did he allow any of his kids (who are all over Bar/Bat Mitzvah) to get drunk either.

    The Wolf

    #1062938

    What’s your opinion on women/girls drinking, and to what extent?

    #1062939

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Whose opinion?

    #1062940

    Your opinion 🙂 It’s quite a regurgitated question, but you may as well give it a shot if you’re not drunk.

    #1062941

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    My opinion on women drinking is no different than my opinion on men drinking. If you can do so responsibly, then by all means do so.

    The Wolf

    #1062942

    volvie
    Member

    There is a difference. Women are obligated to hear the Megillah and to rejoice and partake in the Seuda on Purim, for they were part of the neis. As far as ad d’loi yoda, however, the Rivevois Ephraim (Vol.1 Ch.161) and others rule that it is inappropriate for women to become intoxicated.

    Indeed the Mishna Brura (OC 199:6, in Sha’ar HaTzion), in the laws of birkas hamazon, explains that the reason women are not obligated to make a mezuman is that a mezuman should ideally be performed on a cup of wine and it is unseemly for a woman to do this.

    #1062943

    jphone
    Member

    I did NOT read through this entire thread, nor do I intend to. If I am repeating something, my apologies.

    Did anyone see the Sefer by R’ Doniel Neustadt (sp?) Called ‘daily halacha’ (I believe this is the name) and the halacha he writes for the 11th of Adar? If you don’t want your kids to drink on purim, just tell them ” I forbid you to drink” and they have a chiyuv midoraisa of kibbud av to listen. He quotes this in the name of R’ Shlomo ZAlman z’l. It was later explained to me that the rule that kibbud av doesn’t apply when a parent tells you to go against halacha does not apply in a situation where there is a machlokes poskim. Since there is a wide range of poskim regarding drinking on purim (as stated on ywn the range is from rolling around in your vomit to a glass of wine) the son can be yotze according to those shittos. Of course, now it is shushan purim in c’l there is no excuse for drinking or giving anyone to drink.

    #1062945

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    unseemly for a woman to do this

    Volvie,

    Can you please elaborate what the “this” is in your sentence. Is it make a bracha on a kos? Is it drink wine at all? Or is there some other meaning?

    The Wolf

    #1062946

    volvie
    Member

    Wolfish,

    Instead of hearing it second-hand, why not check it out first-hand in the Mishna Brura? I gave the mekor above.

    #1062947

    HIE
    Participant

    Woman shouldn’t become drunk,

    #1062948

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Volvie,

    Why not clarify your statement?

    The Wolf

    #1062949

    HIE
    Participant

    Look in the mishnah berura And it’s clarified there

    #1062950

    volvie
    Member

    Wolfish,

    Why not look it up? That will clarify it a lot better than I can. I am merely a second-hand messenger here.

    #1062951

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Because I don’t have a MB handy. And you’re the one who made the statement.

    The Wolf

    #1062952

    volvie
    Member

    Wolfish,

    My original paraphrasing of it was as clear as I can get. If you wish to nitpick on “this”, I must refer you to the original source.

    #1062953

    HIE
    Participant

    What is a house without a mb, if I were u I buy one this second

    #1062954

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Sigh. I have two in my house. Some of us go to work during the day.

    The Wolf

    #1062955

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Volvie,

    It’s a simple question — do you mean that women shouldn’t make a bracha on a kos or they shouldn’t drink at all? Or did you mean something else.

    Why won’t you answer it?

    The Wolf

    #1062957

    volvie
    Member

    The Sha’ar HaTzion (by the Chofetz Chaim) citing the Magen Avraham states the most appropriate way (mitzvah min hamuvchar) to recite the zimun is over a glass of wine, and for a woman to do that “is a disgraceful matter” [genai hadavar].

    #1062958

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    It is geneivah to get payed for working while ur blogging

    Sigh.

    So quick to call me a ganav! You don’t know if I’m on lunch or not? Or taking an allowed break? Or even if I can do this as long as I get my work done.

    Why so quick to condemn?

    The Wolf

    #1062960

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    So the objection is for a woman making a formal bracha over a kos. Thank you for the clarification.

    The Wolf

    #1062962

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    And you missed it completely. What ever happened to dan l’kaf z’chus?

    The Wolf

    #1062965

    squeak
    Participant

    Wolf:

    The internet is a wonderful resource, and as you have noted, Google is your friend. The specific mishna brura discussed here can be located in pdf form at this address http://www.hebrewbooks.org/14164 (and I’m sure at many others as well). As a result of the wonderful tool known as the internet you never again need to say that you do not have a MB handy.

    As you have correctly concluded, the Chofetz Chaim is saying that it is a genai for a woman to be m’vareich al hakos. He leaves ambiguous exactly what is genai about it.

    #1062966

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Thank you squeak.

    The Wolf

    #1062967

    HIE
    Participant

    Yeh, but I’m just letting u k ow that if ur emloyer thinks ur working while ur blogging it’s pure geneivah

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