August 3, 2012 1:22 am at 1:22 am #604406
What do people think of the times that rabbonim give a lot of kavod to a very wealth benefactor who donates very large sums of money to Torah causes (Yeshivos, Mosdos, Tzedakas, etc.)?
The individual himself may be an am haaretz in Torah and the amounts of money he donates may be relatively very large sums, but not necessarily more percentage-wise than the average Yankel. (Obiously if the average Yankel, with a struggle, donates 10% of his income in the amount of $4000 while Mr. Money Bag easily donates 8% of his income in the amount of $500,000, the mosod sees a greater benefit from the MB.)
Sometimes the big donor might even be a baal gaiva or an immoral person and yet he still receoves great public honors from Torah leaders. Is this wrong? Does it wash away his public aveiras? How are we to understand this frequent phenomenon?August 3, 2012 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #891266EnglishmanMember
I, too, have trouble understanding this sometimes.August 3, 2012 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #891267YW Moderator-42Moderator
If Hashem gave him the z’chus to be such a big supporter of Torah we should give him kavod (see Igeres haRamban for similar loshon).
There are many rich people out there who give nothing to our worthy causes. Some of these people give nothing at all. Some give to help save the whales. Some give to political parties. These people have so much money and are not zoche to use it to acquire Olam Habbah. But the people you are referring to were zoche. That says a lot. Don’t underestimate that.August 3, 2012 11:18 pm at 11:18 pm #891268KozovMember
??? ???? ?????? – ??????? ??.August 4, 2012 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #891269yerushalaymerMember
i wouldn’t read so much into it. it’s simply the moissad’s only way to survive. I heard once that when they were busy with the Va’ad hatzala during WWII, someone suggested to R’ Aron Kotler that he meet a mafia head, and R’ aron said that he would bow down to the pope if it would one Jewish life.August 5, 2012 12:25 am at 12:25 am #891270
Ohr Chodosh, I’ve personally seen plenty of chaz”al out there that discuss the huge z’chus that is being a benefactor of Torah. Some darshen the pasuk of “Eitz chayim hee lamachazikim bah”: It doesn’t say “lelomdeyha” (those who learn her) or “leyodeyha” (those who know her), but rather, “those who hold her” – which chazal say means financial support.
We don’t show the same kavod to a guy who knows one ten thousandth of what a Gadol knows, as we do to the Gadol, even if it was twenty thousand times more difficult for this guy to learn what he learnt. The same goes for financial support. While anyone who supports Torah deserves kavod, especially someone for whom it is difficult, be’olam hazeh we are not equipped with the knowledge to judge the levels of people’s nisyonos. Therefore we go according to how much someone knows & lives Torah and how much someone supports Torah, but NOT how hard it was for them. Be’olam haba it is a different case, and that’s where we say “olam hafooch raiti”.August 5, 2012 1:57 am at 1:57 am #891271oomisParticipant
Don’t discount the zechus of ANYONE who donates for the kovod of Torah. OTOH, I personally am bothered by the fact that were it not for the kovod, they would never donate, in all likelihood. But the fact that they do, is still something for which we need to be makir tov. Whar used to frind my gears, hwoever, was when two yeshivah students both committed the same “avlah” but the son of the wealthy contributor got off scot-free and the poshuteh mensch’s son was punished.August 5, 2012 4:36 am at 4:36 am #891273KozovMember
The nisayon of ?????? is bigger than the nisayon of ????? or mediocrity. He must make proper use of the money he indeed has. Hashem was michabed this person with the trust and oppurtunity to make proper use of this significant pikadon. We should honor such a person too. Even for R’ Elazar ben Arach this was a great Nisayon (??? ??? ?), how much more so for anashim kierkeinu. But surely they are given great kochos to pass the test since Hashem doesnt come with unreasonable demands from his creations and those who do, their zchus is great. That is why Rebbi (himself an ???? and understood the nisayon) was michabed Ashirim.August 5, 2012 5:50 am at 5:50 am #891274
Mods, why was most post asking for this thread to be deleted deleted?August 5, 2012 7:04 am at 7:04 am #891275
Why would you want to delete it?August 5, 2012 12:48 pm at 12:48 pm #891276
Curiosity: Well, I explained why but the mods deleted it. If they let it through this time, my point was that the timing of the thread makes it obvious that it’s referring to a specific person which is just not nice. It’s an okay concept to discuss, just not when it’s clearly referring to an individual.August 5, 2012 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #891277oomisParticipant
I should NEVER post after midnight. I can’t proofread too well then.August 5, 2012 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #891278
Sam: You are entirely incorrect. The discussion is entirely generic. It was never intended otherwise. And I don’t even know who you are referring to or why you would think that.August 5, 2012 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #891279
Oh okay. I live oot, so I’m understandably out of the loop on those matters.August 5, 2012 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #891280HaLeiViParticipant
42 made an excellent point. I know of someone who, when he gave $20 to a Mossad, it was considered a great accomplishment. But he had no problem donating $6 million to some funny project. There are many stories that indicate how one has to be Zoche to give.
Another point: It says that one who has $100 wants $200. If so, $20 has the same value to a multi millionaire, although it doesn’t translate as bread on the table. So when you hear about someone who donated $1,000,000 don’t translate that onto $10 of your own.August 5, 2012 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #891281WhiteberryMember
I agree with Sam2. I had the same thought when I first read this thread before shabbos and quite frankly, the insinuation is disgusting. So he isn’t the most learned of men, or the most yeshivish of men, doesn’t wear a black hat or white shirt and he doesn’t roll his raishes. However, the money he spreads to the numerous torah institutions and causes, enables thousands (if not tens of thousands)of people to become the most learned of men and afford the outer trappings that being “yeshivish” demands . It should also be pointed out he was given an honor because of what he does with his money, not because of his torah scholarship. This thread represents the abolute worst kind in the jewish bloggesphere, anonymous potshots by ignorant people at rabbonim and other community notables.August 5, 2012 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #891282Shraga18Participant
I had no idea this thread was referring to someone specific, but of course NOW I’m curious 🙂 !August 5, 2012 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #8912832scentsParticipant
Your right, however I would have never made the connection if you wouldn’t have pointed it out. Therefore I don’t think that this so bad.August 5, 2012 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #891284chocandpatienceMember
so am I.
I can see this thread quickly falling into thread-oblivion.August 5, 2012 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #891285
My assumption was that this thread was referring to the man who said the Kaddish at the Siyum Hashas. He is not the most learned of people, though I have on good testimony that he spends a fair amount of time at his community Kollel when he can. But that’s entirely irrelevant. That man has donated millions, maybe even billions, to support Torah learning. Last week, he literally made possible tens of thousands of Siyumim on Shas. Tens of thousands. He has enabled billions of lines of Gemara to be learned. There are trillions of T’fillos in Shamayim now that wouldn’t have ever been made if not for him. When the project is done, a decade or so from now, there will be thousands upon thousands of people being Mesayeim the Yerushalmi as well, once again solely because of him. There is no one on Earth more worthy of having said the Kaddish at the Siyum than him. None of us can even begin to dream what his Chelek in Gan Eden will be like.August 5, 2012 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #891286Ðash®ParticipantAugust 6, 2012 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #891287Mayan_DvashParticipant
I believe the premise comes from someone who is jealous of the money or the kovod that rich people have. These people are doing the right thing with their money. Is this person in kollel learning?
;August 6, 2012 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #891288gavra_at_workParticipant
Kozov: You are 100% correct.
It is Offen a Gemorah. ??? ???? ?????? – ??????? ??.
The fact that someone’s Boich Svara doesn’t agree with a Tanna and he dares to voice it just shows how far his Da’as is from Da’as Torah. Rav Gifter used to say Da’as Ba’al Habos is Hepech to Da’as Torah, and we see that here. Hopefully, whomever disagreed will come back and be Moide to the Emes of Da’as Torah.
Yasher Koach!August 6, 2012 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #891290ShowjoeMember
Sam2:as soon as i saw this tread i also thought about that person and i completely agree with your last postAugust 6, 2012 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #891291apushatayidParticipant
Money Bag Guy? Is that how the OP sees people who donate to a cause?August 7, 2012 12:31 am at 12:31 am #891292ItcheSrulikMember
Sam2: I think you fell into the troll’s trap because most people here know who said the Kaddish.August 7, 2012 2:05 am at 2:05 am #891293
No Itchy. I never meant anyone specific with this topic. And I don’t know why anyone assumed it was anyone specifically. It wasn’t.August 7, 2012 2:12 am at 2:12 am #891294
Itche: Good, they should know and realize all of the tremendous good that he does for Yiddishkeit.August 14, 2012 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #891295squeakParticipant
I think most of us are familiar with the story of the butcher who sponsored the formative torah learning of R’ Moshe and R’ Yaacov. I don’t think anyone would disagree that through that act he became deserving of tremendous kovod and more. Al achas kama v’kama this man who is responsible for mass learning such as we have seen since his philathropy was channeled to this cause. Not to mention any kovod he is due in his own right for his own ameilus batorah. I doubt we could show him enough kovod in this world.
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