giving tzedakah to aniyim who smoke

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  • #1067130
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    im sorry if some are offended by this comment. this thread sounds more like “finding reasons not to give tzedaka” than anything else.

    i think the reality is that the responses are trying to make it seem that that was the purpose of the thread. the op’s intent did not give me that impression at all, there just seem to always be people who don’t like their ‘right’ to smoke attacked. You get the same arguments from the word ‘internet’.

    #1067131
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “as is pretty evident from my post. “

    lol, i honestly thought you meant passing it to him to open it for you! I’ve seen it done.

    #1067132
    catch yourself
    Participant

    You’re right, I missed the last sentence.

    #1067133
    Chortkov
    Participant

    Catch yourself – Sorry, my retort sounded a little harsh, although i didn’t mean it. I apologize if I sounded sharp.

    Sam2 – http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-story-of-the-posek-who-made-an-al-hamichya-on-qinoa

    #1067134
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    im sorry if some are offended by this comment. this thread sounds more like “finding reasons not to give tzedaka” than anything else.

    i think the reality is that the responses are trying to make it seem that that was the purpose of the thread. the op’s intent did not give me that impression at all,

    im sorry if my post came that way my problem is that i don’t usually have cash on me (i don’t make a lot of money as is) and i at times i feel bad when i can’t give, so when i do have money and theres a certain amount of people collecting i want to make sure i’m giving to people who use it correctly

    however interjection has a good point

    Why should their family lose out?

    i hear, however how do i know he has a family to provide for, he doesn’t walk around with a paper who he’s collecting for

    and while on that point there’s people that don’t gett a hechesher from the vaad because their story doesn’t match up, so in that case why should their family lose out?

    #1067135
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    additionally a whole new thread i wanted to start, or even write to hamodia about was their article about poor people where one ani didn’t want to get a job because he makes more money collecting than if he would if he got a job, this is what we’re producing here

    #1067136
    newbee
    Member

    there is no reason not to give tzedaka to an ani who smokes. but you can also keep in mind the best form of tzedaka is to give someone else the ability to become self-dependent.

    #1067137
    sirvoddmort
    Member

    Newbee:

    As the quote goes…

    ‘Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to sell fish and he eats steak.’

    But I think this isn’t applicable in 99% of cases.

    #1067138

    regarding the original question….

    I always feel very hesitant to give them money if I see them smoking or if I can smell for a few reasons.

    first of all, if u can afford to smoke, then you can not have the chutzpah to go round collecting.

    second, when the come round while smoking, they have a very negative attitude.

    but apart from all of this we have to know that no1 would go round collecting if they don’t have to and we have to feel sorry for them and give as much as we can!

    #1067139
    Avi K
    Participant

    The test is to offer to take him to a restaurant or buy him food in a supermarket on condition that he give you all of his cigarettes. If he agrees (and he might not – my grandfather a”h once offered to take a beggar to a restaurant and he said that he wanted money) and then you see him smoking again he is probably not deserving (although you never know – maybe someone gave him cigarettes). This, BTW, is also true regarding wearing nice shoes, etc. Maybe someone gave them to him. However, if one’s tzedaka ability is very limited IMHO he should pick and choose his beneficiaries.

    #1067140
    Chortkov
    Participant

    A collector once came to the Satmar Rov zt”l, complaining about his 10 children, all who had medical problems; two chasunas he had to make while in crazy debt, and a long list of tzoros. The Satmar Rov gave him $10,000.

    After the man left, the gabbaim came in and informed the Rebbe that he was a fraudster. The Rebbe beamed. “Boruch Hashem! His children don’t have medical problems; he has enough money for his family!”

    #1067141
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime.”

    Perhaps this is how it used to be. Now, with the proliferation of the “welfare state”, you will have demonstrators screaming that we took away their free fish!

    #1067142
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    coffeeroomlover,

    first of all, if u can afford to smoke, then you can not have the chutzpah to go round collecting.

    second, when the come round while smoking, they have a very negative attitude.

    I disagree with these conclusions.

    First of all – just because someone is smoking does not mean they can afford cigarettes on top of food and other needs. It’s natural that among the poor there will be a large fraction who do not handle their finances well or exhibit good future planning abilities – they make unwise purchases and then do not have enough left for necessities. That’s partly why they’re poor. Surely Hashem was aware of this yet still commanded us to help all of the poor among our people, not just the ones who budget smartly.

    Second of all – it’s natural that among the poor there will be a larger number of people who lack proper social skills – these issues may be holding them back from employment, etc. That’s partly why they’re poor. Surely Hashem was aware of this yet still commanded us to help all of the poor among our people, not just the socially astute.

    #1067143

    These are questions that deals with a ????????. Actually 4 of them. ?? ????, ?? ?????, ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?? and some hold also of ?? ??? ???? ???? ??.

    Usually when dealing with a ???????? we say to be ?????. Also if you do not like the fellow you can get the ???? of be ???? ???? which falls under the category of ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???. To find so many mitzvos at one time I would run to grab them. Also if you really did not want to give the fellow because he smells or does not look or act nicely and you go ahead and give him, the Medrish says that all of the ????? turn into ???? ??? and you get rewarded for that to. ???? ?????

    #1067144
    apushatayid
    Participant

    This entire thread reminds me of the story with (I believe it was) R’ Chaim Volozhin Z’l, who one year got a much smaller donation from a “regular” than usual. When asked, the donor replied, you used to come collecting on foot, this year I see you have a horse. I dont want my money to go for the horses provisions, I want it to go directly to the yeshiva and the bachurim. He replied, this is part of the chachma hashem gave to Betzalel when constructing the mishkan. What donations were used for the things like the aron, mizbeach etc, and what for the hooks on the curtains and what money to feed the sheep that would be brought as korbanos. He told the donor you give the way you used to, dont worry about how it will be used.

    This is brought down in (if I am not mistaken) “Majesty of Man” Parshas Terumah.

    Dont worry if he smokes, you worry about being mikayem the mitzvah of tzedaka. Hashem will work out the rest. Of course if you have a question whether it is tzedaka altogether, that is why you have a Rav.

    #1067145
    newbee
    Member

    “first of all, if u can afford to smoke, then you can not have the chutzpah to go round collecting.”

    By this logic we should not give anything to anyone without an intensive background check, because there are many beggars who wont smoke infront of you, and there are many beggars who spend money on non-vital items (i.e. chicken instead of bread, cell phone instead of bread, vacations instead of bread, car instead of bread). In fact, probably every ani spends some tzedaka money for non-vital needs. So by this logic you should basically give no one.

    #1067146
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    By this logic we should not give anything to anyone without an intensive background check,

    That is the Halacha, which is why many larger areas have a Va’ad Tzedaka that does the checking for you. It is also why you are better off providing items (such as food or clothes) to Aniyim, or directly paying their grocery or medical bill, and not money, where appropriate. Part of the sickness is that people buy what they don’t need (as an extreme, drugs), and that doesn’t help them at all.

    shulchanhashalem – Well said.

    Once again, I’ll point out that there are Halachos of Tzedaka just like there are Halachos of Shechitah or Basar V’Chalav. Ask your LOR if you have questions on whom to give and how much.

    #1067147
    newbee
    Member

    “That is the Halacha, which is why many larger areas have a Va’ad Tzedaka that does the checking for you.”

    That is not true. There is no halacha saying you have to do a background check when some ani asks you for a couple bucks on the street.

    #1067148
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “That is not true.”

    Perhaps (note the word, perhaps) it is, when there are many aniyim and limited funds, and it is their way of paskening who has kedima.

    #1067149
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Dont worry if he smokes, you worry about being mikayem the mitzvah of tzedaka. Hashem will work out the rest. Of course if you have a question whether it is tzedaka altogether, that is why you have a Rav.

    misplaced rachmanus is achzarius

    #1067150
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    That is not true. There is no halacha saying you have to do a background check when some ani asks you for a couple bucks on the street.

    but if the “ani” comes with a sob story and one time changes his story it calls the “ani” into question and possibly could not be tzedakah at all (see previous post)

    #1067151
    apushatayid
    Participant

    would you tell an overweight ani, listen you could do well to lose a few pounds, dont eat today?

    #1067152
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “possibly could not be tzedakah at all”

    isnt it wonderful that we all have a rav to answer such questions for us?

    #1067153
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    there are numerous reasons why an ani can be overweight (was rich or well off and became poor) or a genetic mutation so it wouldnt help

    secondly,

    isnt it wonderful that we all have a rav to answer such questions for us?

    that also works in the converse

    #1067154
    apushatayid
    Participant

    inverse?

    who cares why he is overweight, the bottom line is he is, why would i want to give him more food to eat?

    #1067155
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    whatever, inverse converse

    there is a difference because he can’t be faulted for being fat if its hereditary and starving him won’t solve the problem

    additionally fat people can die from starvation too, chain smokers wont die if they don’t have a cigarette

    #1067156
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    That is not true. There is no halacha saying you have to do a background check when some ani asks you for a couple bucks on the street.

    Bava Basra 9a:

    ??? ?? ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??”? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???”? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??????? ??? ??????

    Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deiah 251:10:

    ?? ??? ???? ???????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???

    #1067157
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Patur Aval Assur: Thank you, that is the Halacha.

    #1067158
    newbee
    Member

    patur: An ani smoking in of its self is not proof of anything- period. If you look at my original statement i was responding this line “first of all, if u can afford to smoke, then you can not have the chutzpah to go round collecting.”

    while you might have found that using a quick google search, this is not how we determine halacha. I said “There is no halacha saying you have to do a background check when some ani asks you for a couple bucks on the street.” That is true. You are referring to communal funds and or a “chiuv” for a private citizen to give- for that the halacha is different. If you choose to buy one less sprite bottle at the gas station in order to give a poor person who smokes a dollar- there is no halacha against this. Also, what ani who smokes says he does not need food? Additionally, rov moshe says that if someone was rich and they squandered all their money away (lets say in vegas) one must still give him tzedaka since he needs this money now.

    Obviously there are limits, to each his own, but it certainty would not hurt ones middos to give a dollar to someone who asks even if they smoke if they can afford to. To count this $1 towards ones maaser money though is not what I am discussing.

    #1067159
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “chain smokers wont die if they don’t have a cigarette”

    I’m not an addicted smoker, or even a casual one. I dont know what would and wouldnt happen, which is entirely irrelevant and a red herring as far as this conversation is concerned. A chain smoker can die of starvation of they dont have food. Like I said previously, it is not your cheshbon that he is a smoker, he also needs food. Give him money so he can buy food. That he MIGHT buy a cigarette is not your cheshbon, at least not according to my Rav. dont abide by the psak of my Rav to me, ask your own Rav.

    “he can’t be faulted”

    Can, can’t whats the difference.

    #1067160
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    newbee:

    Of course you can also give the dollar to the Alei Yarok political party as well 🙂 We are discussing Halachos of Tzedaka, not someone Stam willing to throw away their money. That is a very different question.

    #1067161
    newbee
    Member

    gavra: “We are discussing Halachos of Tzedaka,”

    what does the following statement have to do with halacha?

    “first of all, if u can afford to smoke, then you can not have the chutzpah to go round collecting.”

    Doesnt sound like that to me. And again, like I said before, by your logic we should never give ANYONE off the streets even $1 since every needs a background check.

    And the other thing mentioned of investigating has nothing to do with specifically an ani who smokes it does not automatically disqualify someone- so even on a halachic basis this is a very problematic statement.

    Also, there is a difference between saying show compassion to others by not 100% withholding a $1…. and throwing ones money away. Also to view a person with an addiction as not being worthy of sympathy is problematic as well as far as middos go. I got this last part from the vibe of the comment.

    #1067162

    The Din is that if ‘you’ want to check you can, however if you don’t want to then you must give because that is the Din as stated above (many Issurim if you don’t). Regarding the whole question all it says in the SH”Aruch is that if a person is a Mumar then he does not get Tzedaka. A. I’m sure the people that are Makpid on smokers certainly would not give a person that went off the Derech. B. I’m sure you would also claim that he is Pasul Ledus. If you have any ????? regarding these questions, remember ??? ???????? ?????? and for sure give him money.

    #1067163
    tiawd
    Participant

    Look at it from the ani’s point of view. If he’s addicted to smoking, he’s not going to stop just because he needs to go around collecting tzedaka. He could have made sure not to spend any of his own money on cigarettes and get them by begging, but he can’t do that since we’ve agreed it would be asur to give him cigarettes. Klal Yisrael are rachmanim b’nei rachmanim- give the poor guy money for his family.

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