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- This topic has 78 replies, 19 voices, and was last updated 1 year ago by Aseh maat ve emor harbeh.
May 24, 2022 11:14 am at 11:14 am #2090299
Why do so many frum people seem to believe be’emunah shleima that global warming is a hoax? Is there an argument in Torah hashkafa for why we shouldnt be concerned about climate change? Or is it just about politics and being automatically against anything the liberals are for?May 24, 2022 11:29 am at 11:29 am #2090311AviraDeArahParticipant
Aseh – in the recycling thread i wrote a lengthy explanation of why a frum jew should not believe in environmentalism.May 24, 2022 11:48 am at 11:48 am #2090317🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
I thought global warming was a joke long before I knew what a liberal was, or who was running for president that year. I thought it was so ridiculous, and additionally out of line with Torah thought, that I was sure it was a joke.
So no, it aint nothing related to politics.May 24, 2022 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #2090347
Thanks Avira. It sounded like your argument was that we shouldn’t worry about global warming or other environmental problems because Hashem will provide what we need and it is our aveiros that cause problems in the world, not pollution. It sounds like you are saying that hishtadlus is unnecessary because Hashem runs the world. Of course Hashem does run the world, but if you take that argument to its logical conclusion, why bother trying to stop Iran from getting a nuclear weapon, it’s our aveiros that give them power? Or why bother to vote, it’s our aveiros that are causing inflation, not Biden?May 24, 2022 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #2090348MarxistParticipant
Global warming is just another aspect of the rotten side of capitalism.May 24, 2022 1:24 pm at 1:24 pm #2090358motchah11Participant
Shrug. Rav Avigdor Miller z”l said it was a hoax.May 24, 2022 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #2090384
Motcha11: So I guess I will consult with our localMeteorologist on matters of Hashgacha.May 24, 2022 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #2090383
Put Torah hashkafa aside. What concern would you have?May 24, 2022 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #2090374
What was Rav Miller’s reasoning?May 24, 2022 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #2090381
It’s been exposed that the so-called “scientific community” manipulated relevant data in order to reach the desired conclusion that man-made Global Warming is real and the cause. Respected scientists who disagreed, and/or pointed out the manipulation of the data and conclusion, were pilloried and threatened with job loss.May 24, 2022 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #2090391
N0mesorah, I don’t understand your question.May 24, 2022 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #2090394
Ujm, that would be a valid reason to have a sofek if global warming is a thing or not. But not a reason to believe 100 percent that it’s not a thing.May 24, 2022 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #2090398
If we take as a given that the world has warned one degree from the thirty year baseline and will warn another degree in the next fifteen years, what are you concerned about?May 24, 2022 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #2090407
Assuming, arguendo, that there were anecdotal cases of data having been manipulated and/or dissenting views suppressed, that would still mean that well over 90 percent of scientists with relevant credentials agree on the core issue of a warming trend attributable to man-made activities. Even many (non-Maga) Republican “climate deniers” have come around to accept the fact that global warming is a real concern. The primary disagreement today is more over the rate of change and the most cost-effective strategies for slowing the warming effect. Unlike most other forms of pollution, it does little good to reduce CO2 emissions here in the U.S. while China, India, Russia etc. continue to emit at current levels or even increase the emissions that would offset our own reductions.May 24, 2022 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #2090408
N0mesorah, why should people be concerned only for 15 years?
Anyway it looks like the worst case scenario according to scientists would be about 4 degrees celsius average temperature rise by 2100 with average sea levels rising by about 4 feet. Obviously scientists have been wrong about lots of things and hopefully this is one if them, but if you suppose they were right, a 4 feet sea level rise would be bad news for anyone owning property in Miami Beach, Coney Island, or anywhere by the beach. A four degree C rise in temperature is the difference between the average temperatures for New York vs Atlanta, so it would be noticeable.
Supposing the scientists are right and the worst case scenario happened, it doesn’t sound like the end of civilization, but it does sound like something it would be good to be prepared for.May 24, 2022 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #2090416nishtdayngesheftParticipant
It certainly seems that would be a step up from who you currently consult with or follow.May 24, 2022 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #2090424
“Dorah, it certainly seems that would be a step up from who you currently consult with or follow.”
*BEDUM-CHINK* Cheap shot alert!May 24, 2022 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #2090442Reb EliezerParticipant
People are not allowed to destroy the ozone layer that Hashem created to protect us,May 24, 2022 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #2090449
I have you an extreme example. Four degrees by 2100 is also extreme. Basically science fiction.k prefer to focus on the more imminent part of the issue, but it’s all the same question.
What is the concern?
Miami Beach? For a multitude of reasons, several of which are sentimental, Miami Beach has serious long term viability questions. It also has the potential for high upside. I’m not invested there, so no concern.
Coney Island? NYC is not at sea level. It’s six or seven feet above. It won’t be really threatened by sea rise before the next century.
The rise in temperature in terms of global warming, is not the same measurement as temperature in weather. The difference between the climates of NYC (mostly pleasant summer) and Atlanta (mostly awful summer) is largely not about the difference in temperature.
What is your concern?May 24, 2022 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #2090458TS BaumParticipant
Moshiach is coming now, so what difference does it make? Sooner or later the geulah shleimah will be here, and foresure before the year 6000, which is less than 220 years away. And if this bubba maisah is a true one, (although no bubbe maisos are true) it will only get at most 15 degrees hotter (going on that it gets 1 degree hotter every 15 years)!May 24, 2022 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #2090471
Aseh: Maybe there’s a sofek if the sky is falling and we should build pillars to hold the sky up. Just in case.May 24, 2022 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #2090492
We read your first post.May 24, 2022 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #2090497
A global increase of fifteen degrees centigrade, is unfathomable. Almost all of Eretz Yisroel would be at or below sea level.
What about mathematical bubbah meisos?May 24, 2022 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #2090503CHOOSIDParticipant
To much chulent can cause Chulent Warming. That’s why we have modern orthedox people who dont make chulent so that saves us from chulent warming.
JUST JOKING!!!! YOU THINK CHULENT IS DANGEROUS???? I HEARD FROM REB SHIMSHON ZEILEG KOLBERTZKAN THAT CHULENT IS SOOOOOOOOOO HOLY!!!!May 24, 2022 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #2090539
“NYC is not at sea level. It’s six or seven feet above. It won’t be really threatened by sea rise before the next century”
But 770 is only 4.3 ft above sea level according to the USGS locator.May 24, 2022 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #2090541
Deae N0mrsorah: Thank you. Perhaps I can hire you to encapsulate my most potent comments into book form, for the benefit of mankind.May 24, 2022 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #2090581
I think they would be best as meditations. They would need to be edited for rhythm and rhyme.May 24, 2022 11:42 pm at 11:42 pm #2090582Little FroggieParticipant
Let the mere fact the these ‘mentalists’ changed their battle cry from ‘global warming’ to ‘climate change’, let that speak volumes. Even THEY don’t preach warming anymore, cause it doesn’t make sense. What’s warming? In Brooklyn, (an unheard of hamlet, somewhere situated on planet Earth) the weather these past month were much, much lower than average. Global means the WHOLE globe as a whole, not just one specific area the ‘mentalists’ decide to choose from for their ‘statistics’ (and of course they’re going to look each time for a different place).
So now it’s climate change. Like beforehand there was no weather (Gosh! What were the conversations like those days.. there was NO CHANGE OF WEATHER)
HaShem is in charge; is, was and will be. He created a most perfect world. He’s at the steering wheel, come and enjoy your ride. No additional attempt at ‘assistance’ is required nor warranted.
If you have an urge to improve in His world, why don’t you make it a more moral, decent place. There’s definitely a mass global moral decay, eating away at society at an alarming frightening rate. Morals and standards of yesteryear, to any society, are being ripped away in the name of progression… a rapid progression to animalism. The race to become an animal..May 24, 2022 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #2090593
UJM, I’m understanding your argument to be that on the one hand you have goyish liberal media telling us that there is a scientific consensus that global warming is real, and on the other hand you have goyish conservative media saying that actually most of those scientists are liberals who are making things up to further their political agenda, and the rest of them are too afraid to say anything because it would ruin their career. And you trust the goyish conservative media more than the goyish liberal media, therefore you have no sofek that global warming is a hoax. Do I have this right?May 24, 2022 11:50 pm at 11:50 pm #2090599
Baum, I hope moshiach comes a lot sooner and /or it is Bubba maises because 15 degrees Celcius = 27 degrees Fahrenheit = 120 degree summer days in NY and growing bananas in AlaskaMay 24, 2022 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #2090609
N0mesorah, thank you for telling me that you don’t own property in Miami Beach. Now that I know that, I realize I don’t need to be concerned about sea level rise.May 25, 2022 12:23 am at 12:23 am #2090619RBZSParticipant
מדרש רבה קהלת – פרשה ז פסקה יט בשעה שברא הקב”ה את אדם הראשון נטלו והחזירו על כל אילני גן עדן ואמר לו ראה מעשי כמה נאים ומשובחין הן וכל מה שבראתי בשבילך בראתי תן דעתך שלא תקלקל ותחריב את עולמי שאם קלקלת אין מי שיתקן אחריך
Man is able to destroy the beautiful world which Hashem created for him (both through sins and by force).May 25, 2022 12:24 am at 12:24 am #2090620
Weather is not climate change. And neither is the same as global warming. You should not be attuned to picking up the howls of the activists. You should attune yourself to pick up The Word Of Hashem. How would anybody mix up the two?!?
Here is an analogy. Someone has a Morning Seder with the intention of finishing Shas. Weather would be how well his seder is going on an individual day or week. Climate is like his chavrusa. Global warming would be how is moving toward his goal. One can claim that it is all just weather – a seder each morning.May 25, 2022 12:25 am at 12:25 am #2090621
The rise in global temperature is not the same thing as the temperature reported on your local weather station. A rise in global temperature has no conclusive meaning to what the temperature will be in a certain area.
The media decides the news. Not the facts. Journalists and TV hosts are not known to be above the average person in Earth Science. A real scientist will predict very little. There will be a disclaimer every sentence or two. If, possible, can, may, we suspect, and so on.May 25, 2022 12:27 am at 12:27 am #2090623
You asked if there is a Torah Hashkafa that makes us not concerned. So I’m trying to clarify that concern one would have, he they were convinced the world warm extremely (Another whole degree in fifteen years.) quickly.May 25, 2022 8:06 am at 8:06 am #2090659tunaisafishParticipant
we have much bigger issues right nowMay 25, 2022 8:07 am at 8:07 am #2090675
Aseh: No, you don’t have it right. It’s been unambiguously exposed that the climate scientists cooked the data, hid data that didn’t comport to their desired result of “proving” man-made Global Warming, so that they could “scientifically” report it is man-made despite the inconvenient facts that cropped up against what they were trying to prove.
Their email accounts, where they openly discussed all this among themselves who they trusted, was hacked and exposed. They had no choice but to admit the legitimacy of what they wrote.May 25, 2022 8:08 am at 8:08 am #2090681
I’m hearing a lot of very good arguments for why we should not lose sleep over global warming and should focus on Torah and mitzvos. That should be an obvious given. Of course Hashem runs the world so we shouldn’t lose sleep over global warming just like we shouldn’t lose sleep over war or terrorists or earthquakes or elections.or anything else of this world.
My question was whether there is a reason, aside from politics, that a frum Jew should take a position on the question of whether global warming is real or a hoax.May 25, 2022 8:09 am at 8:09 am #2090682
I realize my original question may have been unclear because I said “concerned” and people may have interpreted that is meaning “worried”. I agree it’s obvious we should never be worried about anything except serving Hashem (easier said than done, of course)May 25, 2022 8:19 am at 8:19 am #2090696
Even if we take what Ujm alluded to the political extreme, it is still true that the global surface temperature has been warming a bit. (Half a degree Celsius.)May 25, 2022 8:27 am at 8:27 am #2090700
“we have much bigger issues right now”
Your right. Like the type of collars people wear on their bekishes. And flavors of cheesecake.May 25, 2022 9:41 am at 9:41 am #2090708
I was trying to make the point, that most of the hype about the potential fallout about global warming are not really so problematic. The three problems that concern scientists, are water shortages, other agriculture problems, and an energy shortage.May 25, 2022 9:44 am at 9:44 am #2090724tunaisafishParticipant
no like covid, cancer, finding the money to pay the bills trying to deal with expenses acociated with education. There are way more important thing then a half a degree change in natural outdoor cooking.May 25, 2022 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #2090842erParticipant
Aseh: Yes, I think so. If the deniers’ claims are sheker, why would we want the position to be magnified, especially if you understand the issue to be of great impact? We are a people of emes. Others have pointed out other specific reasons: economic, energy, health, protecting the briah, etc. And even if economic or natural beauty concerns aren’t strictly “Torah concerns,” we still have an interest in society doing what we reasonably can. For example, the dishes piled up high in your sink aren’t strictly a “torah concern” either.
Point worth mentioning: it was strategic to bundle all environmental issues into “global warming” rather than having hundreds of separate issues to deal with like habitat loss, energy, industrial standards, etc. Kind of makes sense to me: if you deal with major climate-changing factors, you’ll probably help a lot of the other “smaller” issues. But it’s too bad how over-simplified things have gotten as a result, and how we generally disconnected we feel from “global warming,” whereas its the equally smaller issues that have profound impacts on our personal qualities of life.May 25, 2022 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #2090928Mheichi TeisiParticipant
@n0mesorah those three problems are exacerbated by climate change/global warming. Furthermore, while there is not quite as much of a danger of flooding in the us ( other than Florida), the danger of flooding in other countries is much higher. There are a lot of island countries that will go underwater in a few decades. Those countries don’t have that many people, but there are a few countries that have a high population that are at a huge risk of flooding. Bangladesh has a population of about 200 million people. It sits at the end of the Ganges river, and a large part of the population lives around the river delta. It has a very high risk of going underwater, and if it does, the people that live there would move to other countries. The us would be on that list. Other countries in south and Central America, where farming is reduced due to drought caused by climate change will also migrate to the us.May 25, 2022 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #2090958
I’m aware of all that, Mheichi.
I’m not denying any of the science. I’m pointing out how the commoner is being coached to wonder about concerns that easy to relate to. It is a good way to get people to take notice. It is an even better way to get people to doubt the whole science.May 25, 2022 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #2091014TS BaumParticipant
Hashem gave us plastic, styrefoam, & gasoline for us to use for example to power a car to drive and do a mitzvah, or anything which could help us in our Avodas Hashem, and it would be neglectful to not use these amazing stuff which Hashem has given us.
If your worried about the climate and temperature, Hashem will take care that we won’t get burned up, just as he cared for the past 5782 years.May 25, 2022 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #2091038
And nobody should get guns for protection. Or waste their time trying to befriend politicians and government agencies. Or following… oh, you mean God only takes responsibility for the environment? Okay, let’s all head back to the abortion thread.May 25, 2022 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #2091098
TS Baum, what you say is interesting, but it seems to negate the whole concept of hishtadlus. It’s like as if someone said “Hashem gave us tobacco for us to use in our avoidas Hashem and it would be neglectful not to use it this amazing stuff that Hashem gave us, so I’m going to keep smoking five packs a day and Hashem will take care that my lungs stay healthy just like He has my whole life until now.” On the surface it sounds like Bitachon in Hashem but it actually is not at all what the Torah had in mind.May 25, 2022 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #2091109
Aseh: Did you start building pillars, yet, to hold up the falling sky?
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