Going off the Derech

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  • #1183310

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Too bad YWN doesnt have a “Like” Button.

    Id Liked CTW in a heartbeat

    #1183311

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Maybe the frum world you’re in. Cuz where I live it’s not like that.

    same here

    #1183312

    fkelly
    Member

    I will repeat, perhaps where you live it’s like that. But not where I live.

    #1183314

    sm29
    Participant

    There definitely needs to be a respect for fellow Jews. Even if we disagree with others, we can still respect them as fellow Jews. While an MO individual is not As strict, they basically follow the general halachot. One’s anger toward a fellow Jew is No better, since we also should consider bein adam l’chavero. We should be a good example to our children and show them that while we don’t hold by the MO hashkafah, we still respect them as fellow Jews.

    —-

    The rebellious teen

    Another thing I want to mention is the teen themselves. They are going through a transitional time. They can go from a range of emotions like happy, sad, excited, confused, scared. There is so much they want to do like an independent adult, but they are not yet adults, and so they try to do what they can to express themself. That sometimes comes off as rebellious. But they don’t mean to be misbehave. They just don’t know what to do.

    Pushing or pressuring them to do what we want, like davening, will only make go further away.

    We want to help them, but we have to do it slowly and patiently. When they need to vent out their thoughts, let them vent, and just listen to them. When they are in a Good mood, talk to them and ask them How You Can Help them with what they need emotionally, academically, spiritually………

    Some ideas I got from aish.com/f/p/Teenage-Rebel.html

    #1183315

    Shanifirst
    Member

    When i was OTD I davened 3 times per day and perek shira everyday and tehillim and things it just had to do with the people i hung out with and skirts and pants and things. But, now I;m VERY interested in kiruv which i wasn’t before.

    #1183316

    If you were davening 3x/day and saying tehillim, you weren’t off the derech, period. It could be that you’ve grown in your observance and hashkafa since then, which is wonderful. But you weren’t off the derech.

    #1183317

    Shanifirst
    Member

    Before now, I was even MORE frum and i use to learn 24/7 and then somehow i ended up with the WRONG people and now i’m davening for them to go back on the Derech and there out in MO or mixed schools now and it’s VERY sad:( I almost stopped keeping shomer and wore very inappropriate clothes.

    #1183318

    fkelly
    Member

    Then you weren’t otd, you just hung out with the wrong crowd.

    #1183319

    Shanifirst
    Member

    Do you know any way that I can start doing kiruv and where? (as a teen girl)

    #1183320

    You weren’t off the derech and neither were they. Incidentally, it is not necessarily a bad thing that they are “out there in MO schools”. Yeshivish is not superior to MO; it is just a different hashkafa.

    #1183321

    sm29
    Participant

    If we notice a friend who seems to be slipping and is more lenient than before and is slipping more, we should show them we are still friends. Of course, we should be careful not to be influenced and slip ourself. But just be a good friend who they can talk to.

    #1183322

    interjection
    Participant

    Do you think that otd means having a boyfriend? It’s sad if that’s whats considered otd even if you weren’t shomer (although you were). You could say you had a difficult time with those halachos but you weren’t otd. Otd is my keeping shabbos or kosher and not wanting to. As long as you felt bad not keeping certain parts of the Torah you were on the derech.

    #1183323

    fkelly
    Member

    Jep, oorah..

    #1183324

    interjection
    Participant

    Typo. Otd is NOT keeping shabbos or kosher.

    #1183325

    OhTeeDee
    Participant

    Defining what OTD is doesn’t make much sense. It is a sliding scale based on your upbringing and the expectations that are put on you. I am sure there are sects where having a boyfriend or wearing a bathing suit could be considered otd. Or even eating chalav stam, etc.

    Just be a good person, it’s more important than those that would never miss a minyan but may be doing other things bi’tzinah. Hashem will figure out the rest

    #1183326

    Shanifirst
    Member

    I almost went to a mixed school. Everyone before would call me OTD and the place i live there more layed back then some other frum communities. The reason I stopped was because I wanted to marry a Rabbi and i still do “OTD” things just not in public like go swimminng in mixed pools, listen to not jewish music, go to the theatre, wear shorter skirts when i’m only with girls, etc… without people knowing because it’s not within the frum community and i eventually plan on stopping when H’H i’m married.

    #1183327

    streekgeek
    Participant

    If you plan on stopping when you get married, you better start stopping now. People don’t change overnight…and you can’t expect yourself to do a complete turnaround the day before your wedding.

    #1183328

    chani91
    Member

    ohteedee-

    you are wrong!!! who promised you Hashem will forgive???? what makes you so sure of yourself???

    i can tell you that acording to all the defenitions here i was surely off i mean far from being on … and i will not go into details,,, and i seriously believe that Hashem does not forgive me, However i believe just as much that he enjoys and loves me for what i do do.

    #1183329

    kkls45
    Member

    Off the derech cannot be defined as going off the derech that your parents or community raised you, otherwise if you do anything differently, you are “off the derech.” It has to be defined as going off of Hashem’s derech.

    #1183330

    write or wrong
    Participant

    I think OTD clearly means mechallel Shabbos, since that is the covenant that unites us uniquely with Hashem. The other mitsvos are also important bc if we transgress them, we put ourselves at risk for eventually transgressing Shabbos, and ultimately straying from Hashem completely. If my son were observing Shabbos, yet still doing all the other nonsense, at least I would have a semblance of hope that he is still connected to Hashem and His Torah. I think it is harder to return once one has abandoned Shabbos, yet I am still hoping…

    #1183331

    SaysMe
    Member

    wow- keep hoping, keep believing he can. And i’ll keep hoping for yours and for my brother

    #1183332

    wallflower
    Member

    @kkls45, yes, “off the derech” SHOULD be defined as going off Hashem’s derech…unfortunately, it now means going off whatever derech your parents told you to be on. For every MO who’s bemoaning that their kid drives on Shabbos is a chareidi sitting shiva for his son wearing jeans. Which is why nobody will ever be able to pin a definition on OTD.

    #1183333

    SaysMe
    Member

    wallflower- how many chareidim do you know who sat shiva for a child still frum but wearing jeans

    yes definitions get warped in all areas of life. Many negative terms have been slowly extended to include those it shouldn’t. But just because something is done, doesnt make it right. One in particular has seen much debate here in the cr. But the only way to keep it from happening is to not accept it, to stand against the generalizations. Yes, every one person makes a difference, bec they can correct the term in all conversations they take part in. If we just let it go, we’ll have OTD soon being used teasingly among friends to refer to s/o doing something different than expected, including a quiet kid speaking up in class. Like retard became an insult, mental became an affectionate insult, and crazy became such an acceptable name to call others or their actions.

    Okayyyy whew! Rant over :). Sorry bout that folks!

    #1183334

    fkelly
    Member

    +1 says me!

    #1183335

    write or wrong
    Participant

    SaysMe-Thanks!

    Wallflower-I’m not so sure that’s true. I live in a Charedi community, and unfortunately, I could name at least 20 kids off the top of my head who are OTD, wearing jeans…and worse. None of their parents are sitting shiva.

    There should be a distinction between being “off the derech” and being “off my derech”. They are not the same.

    #1183336

    RisingSun613
    Member

    Daven, daven, daven!!!

    #1183337

    chaimss
    Participant

    I think it has a lot to do with the “ladder” mentality. If someone never wore a hat, then not wearing a hat is no big deal. But if someone did, and now doesn’t, it’s important to find out why. Not because wearing a hat (or not) is the definition of OTD, but because it shows a slip in observance, something that should be discussed with him.

    (BTW I have a friend who no longer wears a hat who is still perfectly Frum. His family has no problem with him and neither does our very-black-hat community.)

    #1183343

    a mamin
    Participant

    WOW: Still keeping you and your family on my mind and in my tefillos!

    #1183344

    write or wrong
    Participant

    a mamin-Thanks, that’s so nice of you! We still need a lot of tefillos!

    #1183345

    smc
    Participant

    write or wrong: Whats going on with your son? You haven’t posted up anything lately regarding your son.

    #1183346

    smc
    Participant

    write or wrong: Whats going on with your son? You haven’t posted up anything lately regarding your son.

    #1183347

    write or wrong
    Participant

    smc-funny you should ask, you must have Ruach Hakodesh. My son went back to school (not yeshiva) although we are happy that he is taking some steps to improve his life. He has a goal now to finish HS and get his diploma, and G-d willing we hope he will continue to pick up the pieces of his life. He still hangs out with the wrong crowd, but the truth is, unfortunately, they are the only ‘crowd’ who accepts him in our neighborhood. On the other hand, there have been many shlichim along the way who made contact with our son and still do, and we are hopeful that he will eventually see that the religious are not ‘so bad’ after all. He is still pretty far from religion, with only sporadic sparks of connection. I pray that we will see more but we still have a long road ahead of us…

    Thanks for asking.

    #1183348

    smc
    Participant

    WOW: I am very happy about the positive change in him!! I hope he keeps it up!!

    Did the people he hangs out with also go to that school?

    It’s not that he has anything against being religious, but he feels his life is empty due to the abuse has been getting, so he needs to fill that part up, therefore he rebels, and the easiest thing to rebel against is to what he was brought up with.

    #1183349

    write or wrong
    Participant

    smc- Yes, unfortunately, some of his ‘friends’ also go to this school. So if it’s a rebellious phase, then he’ll eventually get past it. But if he has a rebellious nature, then….what?

    #1183350

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    wow- from everything you said it does not sound like he has a rebellious nature. I hope he works this thru and comes out stronger in his faith. I have seen it happen.

    #1183351

    hudi
    Participant

    Glad to hear he is settling down a little and gaining some stability. It can only get better from here.

    #1183352

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is a huge difference between “Ben Sorrer OMorrer” and normal teenage angst.

    Hanging out with girls is not the same as being a Juevenile Deliquent

    #1183353

    smc
    Participant

    Everyone has a rebellious nature, especially teens. Now what he’s doing, he himself is not happy about. Another point of why he’s rebelling, is he’s asking for help in a different way because he can’t bring himself to ask for help verbally, or because he doesn’t trust people (due to the abuse), but either way, when he rebels, he is expecting someone to ask him “What’s hurting you inside that’s making you to act the way you do?” or somthing to that effect. I think that was at the earlier stage of his rebelling, but now he feels he’s a lost case even though it’s not true.

    #1183354

    smc
    Participant

    Everyone has a rebellious nature, especially teens. Now what he’s doing, he himself is not happy about. Another point of why he’s rebelling, is he’s asking for help in a different way because he can’t bring himself to ask for help verbally, or because he doesn’t trust people (due to the abuse), but either way, when he rebels, he is expecting someone to ask him “What’s hurting you inside that’s making you to act the way you do?” or somthing to that effect. I think that was at the earlier stage of his rebelling, but now he feels he’s a lost case even though it’s not true.

    #1183355

    SaysMe
    Member

    smc- i think you may be assuming you know why he was going otd, or why people do in general, but there’s no one reason, or even 2 or 3. And even one kid who goes otd likely has multiple overlapping or combined reasons/causes. Yes what you’re saying definitely applies to some, but only some.

    #1183356

    write or wrong
    Participant

    smc- maybe you’re right in a way, but he’s so closed. And even though he’s had options to get help, he only minimally follows through with them. You’d think he wants help with his pain, but he’s set up so many barriers at this point that it’s very hard to reach him.

    hudi-I certainly hope you’re right!

    Syag Lchochma-I think just being a teenager instills a rebellious nature! Just hope it isn’t permanent.

    #1183357

    fkelly
    Member

    Wow- it’s really hard for someone to admit they need help. And even when they do, they’ve locked up the pain so deep that they’d rather not talk about it.

    #1183358

    Miri Topez
    Member

    What’s going on with him now? I hope his back on now

    #1183360

    a mamin
    Participant

    WOW: You are constantly on my mind and in my tefillos! Hope you are holding up ?

    #1183361

    write or wrong
    Participant

    Miri Topez/a mamin:

    Thanks for thinking of me and for your prayers. We still need them! I really wish I could have said that things are better. And I never could have imagined when I started this, that we would still be in this parsha, all this time. But unfortunately, things have not turned around.

    Keep davening, not just for me, but for all the many, many families who are going through this terrible nisayon.

    #1183362

    hudi
    Participant

    Is he at least opening up some more and starting to heal?

    #1183365

    smc
    Participant

    What is going on? You did not keep us posted for a very long time!

    #1183366

    shirafirst
    Member

    Is he frum now? Its been quite some time:(

    #1183367

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    this isn’t a movie sequel, it’s someones life.

    Write or wrong, we are still thinking of you. Hope you can see Hashem’s Hand guiding you all.

    #1183368

    SaysMe
    Member

    syag- thanks, i couldnt figure out how to say that.

    Life is complicated kids. People go off for a multitude of reasons. Some just start going off, some are off for years then return, some change, some are lo aleinu gone forever. Its complicated, its painful, its ongoing, its a private struggle. We can daven and wish for the best, and thats as far as most of us can go in an anonymous poster’s difficulty. Then we can respect their privacy and emotions. Believe me, it’s not an easy nisayon… Sending a hug and hope for besuros tovos to all those with a child, sibling, parent, cousin struggling with his/her derech

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