Going off the Derech

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  • #1183556

    MsPrincess
    Member

    in my circles im allowed to talk to boys thats why i said i was talking to him since i come from a more modern circle and i am one of them more religious ones but i dont talk to boys in the way that is not tznius i only talk to them in class and thats it not out of class what i meant by out of class was right outside the classroom (thats where i was talking to him “outside” of class) thats why i was asking how to help him since i can since im allowed to talk to boys.

    #1183557

    Mammele
    Participant

    Princess: sorry, but it seems you’ve been outnumbered here by people mostly older and dare I say wiser than you. I really hope that counts for something in your mind. If not, (since we are after all anonymous posters) as I mentioned earlier ask a shaila from someone you trust. Don’t act unilaterally.

    #1183558

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I’ll echo everyone else, and add that even if you can trust yourself, don’t trust the boy. In the heat of the moment, he can convince and pull you in as well.

    Ask your trusted adviser or Rav.

    #1183559

    MsPrincess
    Member

    mammele – older does not mean wiser. it just means more life experience. when it comes to academics ive done better than people who have children my own age in my class.

    #1183560

    Mammele
    Participant

    Right, and that was the sense I was using it in, as this situation is more practical than academic. Once you start practicing what you’re studying for you’ll realize I’m right and not everything that’s on paper is actually perfect in any given situation. Sechel Hayusher definitely increase with age if one is willing to learn from their experiences. And that’s why we respect our elders despite our young minds thinking we know better…

    #1183561

    MsPrincess
    Member

    it might sound funny by the boy is not that type he is very smart his becoming a doctor i doubt that he would convince me to go otd like him chasvichallila. im not that young just btw i dont know why you have the impression of me being some young teen.

    #1183562

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Mammele: EXACTLY!! Could not have put it down better.

    #1183563

    golfer
    Participant

    MsPrincess, I humbly defer to your academic expertise and erudition. However, there must be some person in your life (dare I suggest older person?) that you would consider consulting with before you embark on your mission. Surely you realize that we are not always best situated to recognize our own motivations in any given situation. The risk-benefit analysis might be more accurately provided by someone not directly involved. I realize how difficult it must be for someone so intelligent and learned to find an individual whose advice can be respected, but the search for such a person will certainly prove advantageous. (Trust me on that!)

    Mammele, I’m a great fan of your posts. But in this case, you probably realize there’s no point wasting your breath (or keyboard). There’s a great quote, popularly attributed to Mark Twain but probably not actually written by him, about how dumb his father was when he was young… Are you familiar with it?

    #1183564

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Every teenager thinks they know more than the adults

    #1183565

    write or wrong
    Participant

    MsPrincess- my son is still OTD, unfortunately. Thanks for asking.

    Usually if someone is OTD, there are deep issues that caused him to leave his family and the familiar upbringing in which he was raised. It is no simple matter! Your concern is honorable, but you can’t expect to bring him back to his religion by doing something you’re not allowed to do, even if in your circles you are ‘allowed’ to talk to boys.

    When you say you don’t think he would try to convince you to go OTD, I’m sorry, but you sound young and naive. Of course he won’t try to convince you with words, but what if he ‘starts’ with you? You’re not only not allowed to give yourself this test, but you’re not allowed to put a stumbling block before the blind. And I’m not quite sure who the blind one would be, him or you…

    If your intentions are pure and you really want to help him, find a Rav or Kiruv Organization that can pick up where you’ve left off…

    #1183566

    MsPrincess
    Member

    write or wrong – the boy may be smarter than me but that doesnt mean his smarter than me when it comes to religion i obviously am the smarter one. even if he “started” with me which he has i still wouldnt go otd for him he would have to come back on for me not the other way around. he is very close with his mother as i said and very close with his sister like how i said that i always see them together and im friends with her. his sister is bjj type im sure she has tried to bring him back on and im sure he use to also be that way until he went off i doubt that he would somehow be able to convince someone like me go otd.

    #1183567

    TRUEBT
    Participant

    This was an extremely important point that you forgot:

    “i forgot to add that his sister asked me if she and him can get a ride because she didnt want him going with not jewish girls and she rather him go with a jewish girl.”

    This is a delicate balancing act. Some girls can just refuse to talk to any and all men which makes life easier. You should talk to a Rabbi about this situation.

    Having his sister in the car will mean the two of you have a chaperone, so it is mutar al pi Din. Just make it clear -both to him and to yourself- that without a chaperone, you aren’t going to give him a ride. Without a chaperone, it is better for him to go with the non-Jewish woman.

    What the other adults are telling you about this boy sucking you into his world is correct, but if there is a way to help that is mutar al pi din, then you can rely on the Halacha to protect you.

    If you don’t, then the boy will use this as evidence of his pariah status. I’m telling you to help when the Halacha allows you to, so he won’t get any angrier than he (probably) already is.

    That’s about all you can do to help him. Befriending him is not going to help. In fact it will probably make things worse. Do what you can within the restrictions of Halacha, and hopefully next semester he won’t be in any of your classes.

    Of course, there is one more thing you can do. You can daven for him. Get his name from his sister and say tehillim and daven for the zechus of the amiras tehillim to go to him.

    #1183568

    MsPrincess
    Member

    he might be in my classes since were both going for very similar degrees and this past semester like all our classes were the same. the reason why we talked was because im not as good at the subjects as he is so he was helping me so i can do better in the classes and sometimes we would go thru the sister and he would give her the information to help me so that way we wouldnt have to talk.

    #1183569

    MDG
    Participant

    “So i should just stand by as i see a boy who comes from a very religious good family get into a car with a bunch of not jewish girls from my class? “

    Yes. From what I understand, I don’t think this guy is angry or hurt. He has male taavot. That’s why he’s hanging out with all those girls.

    Ms Princess,

    There is nothing you can do that will help him. In fact the more you talk to him, the worse things become, as you are drawing him closer to his taavot. If you need to speak about school subjects, then keep it to a bare minimum and stay business-like. You don’t understand a man’s desires. You are playing with fire. If you want to mekarev him, find a guy to speak with him.

    Here’s a mashal: you go trying to save a drowning person when you can’t swim. Go find a life guard and you stay out of the water.

    BTW, you mention that he is really intelligent. That means nothing in regards to taava. There have been many very intelligent men that were very immoral, from Aristotle to Bill Clinton.

    #1183570

    MsPrincess
    Member

    I dont think he went off because of girls because he wasnt always hanging out with girls that often he also had a group of boys he hung out with probably more often than the girls even tho he went home with the girls he wasnt as close at school with the girls as he was with the guys.

    #1183571

    MsPrincess
    Member

    the reason why his different than most otd boys is because his more into studying than being otd.

    #1183572

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    You need to answer this question honestly, Do you want to help this boy because you want to Kiruv him or because you like him?

    #1183573

    MDG
    Participant

    “I dont think he went off because of girls….”

    Maybe not (we don’t know), but you can’t deny an ever-present force of nature.

    “…because his [sic] more into studying than being otd. “

    Ok, so he does not sound bitter; he doesn’t seem to ruminate over the past. That’s why it seems to me that he was following desire(s) and left rather than feeling “pushed” out.

    #1183574

    MsPrincess
    Member

    mdg – what do you mean he left because he was “following desires”? what kind of desires? that he didnt want to be frum anymore because he liked the not jewish world? it could be. i dont know. i actually feel like he went off because of the school he went to because MANY boys from that school went off but it could be not because his not friends with those kinds of boys so i dont know at least the ones i know of that were his friends are not friends with him now so no clue.

    zahavasdad – i want to help him because i feel bad because i know him and his family and i know he has an ability to be at a top yeshiva if he was still religious because his VERY smart and knows a LOT and comes from a very religious family. He has a potential to marry a very good girl also so why through away a good boy when we have enough shidcuh crisis as is and he could be a very good boy for a very good girl?

    #1183575

    golfer
    Participant

    MsPrincess,

    You conveniently skipped right over my post, which is fine.

    Not so fine- you skipped right over several others who stepped in with great advice. I think you may be new here, so please allow me to enlighten you: Mammele’s advice is always on the mark; always falls in the “Piha pascha b’chachma” category. Ignore her at your peril. As for write or wrong , I can’t even begin to imagine why you’d blithely overlook her wise counsel. There is no one else here with as much experience in the subject at hand, or who approaches the subject matter with that level of deliberation and care. TRUEBT and MDG have a lot to say that’s smart and to the point. And zahavasdad’s last post, while short, might open your eyes to an important consideration. (If you’d bother to read it, I guess I should add.)

    So I’m back to the original point I tried to make: Find someone- a Rav, a Rebbetzin, a mechaneches, a parent or relative, an acquaintance you admire. Ask for their advice. I know it’s hard. Your brilliance and proficiency in all subject matters make it difficult to vanquish your own, well-deserved feeling of intellectual superiority. Never mind that. Get yourself some guidance.

    Hatzlacha!

    #1183576

    Mammele
    Participant

    Princess: the more you rationalize this the more personal it probably is for you, and the more you post here your texting style reveals that you actually are pretty young. No offense we were all young once…

    But try to take yourself out of the equation and contact your Rav – I think you mentioned him on another thread. Or find someone else.

    #1183577

    MsPrincess
    Member

    golfer – i did read the posts that why i replied to them.

    mammele – i have contacted a rav i did ask him to get involved but the issue was he wanted to go on campus and get in contact with the boy and i felt like if he did the boy would see im the one who told on him and he wouldnt be too pleased with me.

    #1183578

    Mammele
    Participant

    As an educated young woman I’d assume you’d know that “intervention” is usually “painful” for the “patient” but must be done nonetheless. (I know we’re talking about ruchnios but the principle still holds true.)

    The fact that your likability with him registers higher on your radar than his tachlis, which was supposedly the premise for your posting here speaks volumes.

    Many Rabbis won’t get involved unless the person makes the initial contact since they want to know there’s who to work with, so you’re VERY LUCKY you got a Rabbi to go on campus first. Grab the opportunity!

    And finally, did this Rabbi recommend you get involved personally?

    #1183579

    MsPrincess
    Member

    mammele – when i was referring to a good frum girl i was referring to myself. i dont want someone whos otd obviously and i know he has potential to be very religious. if he were to go back on the derech then i could go out with him since we already know that we like each other so i want to help him so that way he can have his full potential and be very religious and have a nice beautiful religious family. it is his type to become frum for me but i dont want him becoming frum for me i want him doing it for Hashem and so i want to know how to help him become religious in the regular way not for a girl.

    #1183580

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    if he were to go back on the derech then i could go out with him since we already know that we like each other so i want to help him

    Bingo. there you go

    #1183581

    Mammele
    Participant

    Finally spilling the beans…

    I think you’re kidding yourself about a few things and hopefully you haven’t become too invested in him — but the best way to get him to come back leShem Shamayim is to have your Rabbi handle it. And if he comes back and resents you for it and can’t get over it t’ll be a korban you gave for Hashem and be a great zechus for you to find YOUR RIGHT SHIDDUCH as obviously it wasn’t meant to be.

    But if he’s this perfect boy and comes back to live a perfectly religious life he’d be THANKFUL YOU BROUGHT HIM BACK AND NOT HOLD IT AGAINST YOU!

    Again, I can’t stress enough how much you are blinded from seeing the truth so please discuss your feelings about him with someone competent.

    #1183582

    MsPrincess
    Member

    first of all i think its totally fine if i want him enough to try helping him go back on since its not easy to find shidduchim and especially for frum girls who didnt go to high school at least well both know who helped him go back on and hell appreciate that it was me and give me another reason why were a good couple plus his everything i want in a guy besides not religious which is a huge problem obviously but i can help fix that.

    #1183583

    technical21
    Participant

    Ms. Princess-

    It sounds like you are a few years younger than me, based on your posts. Everyone in this forum has been warning you repeatedly to get away from the fire BEFORE YOU GET SERIOUSLY BURNED. You don’t want to listen.

    You claim that your intelligence is a big factor. Take it from someone who has been top of the class everywhere: raw intelligence is a gift from G-d which has many uses, but it is no substitute for life experience. I do much better than my parents and many of my teachers ever did on tests, but right now, I cannot touch their shoelaces in terms of wisdom. It’s not all about ego, “I’m smarter, I know better”; it’s about making the right decisions in life, which require more wisdom than an 18- or 19-year-old girl can have.

    You did not seem to understand what MDG said about this boy’s desires. Let’s put it this way (at the risk of having this post disallowed): when boys are with girls, there is only one thing that is usually on their minds, and it’s not intellectual conversation.

    As Mammele said, you finally “spilled the beans”: you like this boy and in your fantasies, he will come back on the derech and then you can marry him. That’s where you’re really getting yourself into hot water. He can drag you into a nightmare.

    BE CAREFUL, BEFORE YOU GET HURT!

    #1183584

    MsPrincess
    Member

    techincal – to spill beans more ive once been almost basically otd since then i frumed out like crazy i went back on because i decided i didnt like the otd boys then this boy came along when i was back on the derech for a long time but i dont want to go back off too bad that this boy seems very good and the right boy for me now its his turn to go on for me not the other way around.

    #1183586

    technical21
    Participant

    Sounds like there’s still more you’re not saying.

    Also sounds like you came back on the derech for the wrong reasons. Go off, check out the boys, you don’t like them so you come back on? What happened to “doing it for Hashem”?

    Why does this boy seem like the right one for you? Because he’s smart and you find him attractive?

    It’s his turn to go on for you?? Since when? He owes you nothing. He is making his own life choices- and bad ones, by the sound of it. You’re the one who’s pining after him. Do you want to risk your frumkeit (and possibly other things, too) for the sake of such a boy?

    #1183587

    MsPrincess
    Member

    no his the right one for me because his my type of boy that would be good for me for my kind of personality and what im looking for the only big issue is that his not religious. he use to come and talk to me also so its not like im the one who was always talking to him he also likes me. Maybe if he wasnt the one who talked to me i wouldnt have even found out he was jewish since at first i thought he wasnt and that he was just another not jewish boy. im not risking my frumkeit for him i literally am just asking how i should help him go back on not for others to keep telling me dont talk to him. hell make you go otd. his a bad influence. etc…

    #1183588

    technical21
    Participant

    First of all, can you please punctuate “he’ll” properly? It’s getting to me.

    As for your comments, there’s some Yiddish quote that I’m sure other CR people can supply: if you don’t understand now, explaining it won’t help matters.

    But suffice it to say that you’re playing with fire, and unaware that you’re about to get burned.

    #1183589

    MsPrincess
    Member

    what do you mean burned?

    #1183590

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Instead of asking for dating advice on Yeshiva world news, why not ask on Jdate

    #1183591

    MsPrincess,

    Many of your posts sound anything but intelligent.

    You should ask a 3rd party who is completely uninvolved.

    Please remember: wiser is not smarter.

    #1183592

    MsPrincess
    Member

    zahavasdad – im not asking for dating advice im asking how to do kiruv.

    no emal adresses allowed – you just insulted me.

    #1183593

    MDG
    Participant

    MsPrincess,

    You wrote:

    ” im not asking for dating advice im asking how to do kiruv.”

    ” his the right one for me because….”

    You contradict yourself. Are you looking to do kiruv or are you trying to date? Trying both at once won’t work. You can’t say I’m doing this for Hashem while feeling I’m doing this for me. He’ll see right through that and get turned off more. He’ll call that hypocrisy.

    There are many who date (more often women) who think that they found the right person except for one thing or two. And they think they will change that person. The truth is what you see is what you get (WYSIWYG).

    #1183596

    MsPrincess
    Member

    i dont think its gonna work for me going to seminary i really dont know what i want to do with my life yet.

    #1183597

    MsPrincess
    Member

    MDG – why would he get turned off even more because his dating a girl who wants him to become religious? if he likes her enough why would he feel such a way? he should want to do anything for the girl he likes enough.

    #1183598

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    You have alot to learn about relationships and dating

    #1183599

    MDG
    Participant

    “why would he get turned off even more because his dating a girl who wants him to become religious?”

    First of all, he’s not dating such a girl, nor do I think he wants one.

    At present, he made a decision to go OTD. He’s not interested in religiousness. He probably does not want such a girl for an LTR.

    “if he likes her enough why would he feel such a way?”

    As I touched on above, most men don’t want to be changed. It turns them off. Simply put, that’s not accepting the man for who he is. Many women try to “improve” their men. Men hate it, as it’s demeaning.

    “he should want to do anything for the girl he likes enough. “

    Probably not (see what I just wrote). Maybe in very rare circumstances, but that’s not happening here. He’s not even dating you. In fact, you have not even mentioned that he shows any desire to date you. To me that’s enough to say that you are (pardon any negative connotations) barking up the wrong tree.

    #1183600

    Zev7
    Member

    the olam over here needs god in their lives

    #1183601

    MsPrincess
    Member

    MDG – the reason why were not dating is because im a religious girl and his otd.

    #1183602

    MDG
    Participant

    …and maybe because he’s not interested.

    Did he ever ask you out? Or at least say that he wanted to date you?

    #1183607

    YW Moderator-127
    Moderator

    MsPrincess has been blocked as a troll. There is no point engaging with him/her. Please discontinue this topic so that I do not have to close this thread.

    #1183608

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    It took my like 10 minutes to type up that story and you deleted it? *gasp*

    #1183609

    write or wrong
    Participant

    Thank-you Moderator.

    I was about to say that it’s quite unfortunate that this thread was being used for something that has nothing to do with the original topic.

    For anyone who’s been following my saga, I will give a short update.

    My son is now 20, and is in the army. He is still OTD. I have learned many things the past few years, and was given lots of advice from lots of people. Often, conflicting advice. It’s an extremely painful and difficult test when a child goes off the derech. It challenges our faith, our marriage and our identity. I don’t think there is a theory or therapy that will work in all situations, given that there are usually many variables. But I do think that certain attitudes must be included, even though they may contradict, and it is up to each parent to find that balance that works for both them and their child. There’s no guarantee! But most critical is to make sure your child knows you love them. It sounds so simple, but this itself is a huge challenge bc you are not happy with anything they are doing…and they know it. If you can convey this love, then I also believe you must set limits. But it has to be done with love, not with the need to take control and exert authority. Our husbands have to be very careful that they don’t get into power struggles with the OTD child. They will not win! And I believe it will be an obstacle for the child to come back. We learn how to respect and love Hashem based on the relationship we have with our parents. If we keep this in mind at all times, then I think it will help us in our interactions with our OTD child and all our children.

    Perhaps the most important thing is Tefillah and keeping our emunah strong. It is a test for our child as much as it is for ourselves. We don’t see the bigger picture, but Hashem is directing everything for the ultimate good. My role is to be a loving mother, available and dedicated, praying that my son overcome his challenges and return to the family that awaits him…..and Hashem. Hatzlacha to all…

    #1183610

    Going off the Derech does not help. The kid obviously is in pain whether its abuse, family problems or low self-esteem ect ect…. and that’s the reason the kid is going off trying to numb the pain and express himself in different ways then what he is use to.

    #1183611

    technical21
    Participant

    Okay. Sorry for engaging.

    Was just getting on my nerves.

    #1183612

    MDG
    Participant

    “My son is now 20, and is in the army.”

    I hope that gives him some structure in his life. It sounds like before he had none. Maybe also some self-esteem.

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