Going off the Derech

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  • #1183613

    golfer
    Participant

    I have so many people to say things to, I don’t know where to start.

    I guess the simplest message is-

    Mod 127, Thank you very much.

    The unhappy messages are-

    Thisnameisal, I strongly disagree. I am not the voice of authority on these matters, but I still feel I have to say that you’re being presumptuous when you pretend to know why someone went OTD (there are other motivations that you left out). You might be completely wrong when you say he’s acting this way to numb the pain.

    MDG, as above, you have no idea that his life was lacking structure. Why are you making that assumption? The army may or may not be taking him in a positive direction, and may or may not be giving him something he was lacking. Maybe he’s aware of that and most likely his mother knows. But if she didn’t say that, there’s no way you know and no reason for you to say it.

    Write or wrong, I saved you for last.

    Your last post is the most beautiful, cogent, thought-provoking piece of writing I’ve seen in these pages. As a parent, even though I’m not going through the same challenges as you, I found I could learn something from every word you wrote. Thank you for opening your heart to us. May the years ahead bring you only Nachas from your children!

    #1183614

    GOLFER…..

    I personally went off the derech when I was 15 because of abuse and used it as a way to numb the pain and escape reality while doing drugs and drinking. I have many “friends ” that went off for all different reasons. The most common cause for going off was because of abuse and most of the time its was sexually abuse either by relatives, close family friends, rebbiem , and neighbors. I was just saying some cases that I know of.

    #1183615

    MDG
    Participant

    “MDG, as above, you have no idea that his life was lacking structure. Why are you making that assumption? “

    It seems to me from what write or wrong has written before that her son comes and goes as he pleases, any time of day or night. He wasn’t holding down a job. He was hanging out with his friends all the time. To me, that is not a life of structure.

    #1183616

    chanasara
    Member

    write or wrong: I don’t post often but wanted to let you know that your son has been in my tefillos from when you first posted the story. Thank you for sharing the update. May Hashem grant you clarity and strength as you continue on the journey – and may it end soon with besuros tovos.

    #1183617

    smc
    Participant

    Write or Wrong: Woooow! I’m really impressed at what you wrote! I think you have a great understanding of this whole situation! I wish other parents would have the same attitude!

    And as you said, emuna and bitachon are a big player in any nisayon one has!

    #1183618

    write or wrong
    Participant

    Golfer, chanasara, smc- thank-you for your blessings and kind words…

    #1183619

    a mamin
    Participant

    WOW: We are still thinking of you and your son….. We will continue to daven until the yeshua is here….

    #1183620

    mom12
    Participant

    WOW. Hi. I’ve been thinking about you often the past few years (true- I haven’t been to the coffee room in a while), I was wondering what happened with your son.. Now I saw..

    There is always hope.. we just need to keep davening (I don’t think I have to tell you).

    was nice seeing you in the coffee room.. I don’t check in too often as I am quite busy..

    #1183621

    write or wrong
    Participant

    a mamin and mom12- can’t believe you’re still ‘with’ me, after all this time..! How is your son doing mom12?

    Thanks for your tefillah and thinking of me….

    May we all see only nachas from our children…

    #1183622

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    WOW

    Has your son gone into the Army yet?

    #1183623

    pcoz
    Member

    As long as your son is not successful while he is off the derech he will come back.

    #1183624

    ayingle
    Participant

    my great grandson…

    #1183625

    pcoz
    Member

    Reb Nosson Tzvi Finkle’s z’l grandfather was sent to America by his father the Alter of Slabodka because he rebelled against him. The Alter of Slabodka regretted sending him away his entire life.

    #1183626

    CoolPenina
    Member

    do people come back on if they go off when their older like in the young 20? i want to know if i have hope for one of my close friends.

    #1183627

    TheGoq
    Participant

    The truth is coolpenina that you can never understand another persons pain, you don’t know why they left, but when the world treats you cruelly it’s hard to believe in anything positive.

    #1183628

    write or wrong
    Participant

    There’s no way to know if they’ll come back easier if they left the derech when they were younger vs older. There are success stories for any age. But if you don’t know why they left, then you don’t know what will bring them back. I think that’s the main indicator…

    #1183629

    pcoz
    Member

    People come back when they run out of steam.

    #1183633

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Unfortunalty its not true that most come back, One should certainly daven for such an outcome, but one must also be prepared if they dont and if you are a parent of an OTDer if they arent coming back, at least try to get them in a productive life.

    Send them to the Army, College, work anything productive. There are alot worse choices than those places. Im sure most would prefer their OTD child in the Army or studying in College than on the streets doing drugs

    #1183634

    pcoz
    Member

    Most come back if you don’t make a point of them being different.

    #1183636

    a mamin
    Participant

    WOW!! My best wishes for the true salvation for your son! Chag Sameach!!

    #1183637

    write or wrong
    Participant

    a mamin- Thanks! Chag Sameach to you too!

    #1183639

    Sparkly
    Member

    Any success OTD stories where the person became frum?

    #1183640

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is a well known anti-kiruv organization that basically had people going from charedi to secular. However many charedim didnt really want to go secular, they just didnt want to be charedi, but wanted to remain frum.

    A frum MO woman started an organization they helped charedim who wanted to leave the charedi (Mostly chassidish) lifestyle and become more westernized, but still remain frum.

    #1183641

    Sparkly
    Member

    zahavas dad – people going off the derech is sad not a success story the opposite of a success story.

    #1183642

    Meno
    Participant

    Sparkly,

    The second part of Zahavasdad’s post is a success story

    #1183644

    a mamin
    Participant

    ZD; I hope you’re not talking about Footsteps are you?

    #1183645

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I think he’s referring to Project Makom.

    #1183646

    Sparkly
    Member

    DaasYochid – whats project makom?

    a mamin – isnt footsteps to make people otd?

    #1183647

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    DY is correct

    Project Makom was founded by a frum woman who runs a kiruv organization who was making Slick videos explaining orhtodox judasism to many in a way more palatable to the non-frum

    Many people would comment on her videos and give their “criticism” however most of the criticism was just trolling, but one woman was a former chassidic woman who said, she left being chassidic because she couldnt take that lifesyle and tried to become a modern orthodox . However she could not integrate into the more modern community as they were not so nice to her and she totally left. The woman who runs Project Makom then heard about some similar stories and got some seed money to help those from chassidic backroounds who wanted to be frum, but just couldnt live the life as a chassid.

    #1183648

    Footsteps is not to “make people OTD”. It’s to help people who are ALREADY OTD to integrate into secular society and help them find college educations and jobs, etc.

    Project Makom visited my community a little while ago. I hosted a few of the participants for Shabbos. They were very sweet and sincere but I had a hard time relating to them because their backgrounds were so different than mine. And they did have a LOT of questions. Which I think is a good thing.

    #1183649

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The people at footsteps are more than happy to take people further from Yiddishkeit.

    #1183650

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Anti-Kiruv organization is actually telling some people to go to Project Makom

    #1183651

    Sparkly
    Member

    zahavasdad – not everyone is meant to be cahsidish. it is hard. some people want to go out and do stuff they cant if their chasidish.

    jewishfeminist02 – that is smart of footsteps because some people who become otd would otherwise end up on drugs and stuff so its better for them to go to college. but still they should spend time more wisely helping them become frum.

    #1183653

    Sparkly
    Member

    zahavasdad – footsteps is HORRIBLE!! i was just discussing it with a sibling of mine and they didnt know what the program was called but i told them that it was footsteps since they were saying how it makes people go otd and how horrible it is.

    #1183654

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    people who go to the Anti-Kiruv organization already have visions of leaving

    #1183655

    Sparkly
    Member

    zahavasdad – but its still an issue.

    #1183656

    reuventree555
    Participant

    @sparkly “zahavasdad – footsteps is HORRIBLE!!”

    Sparkly, I’m just trying to help you out, but you really should consider writing in a more mature fashion and using less exclamation points.

    It just makes you seem younger and more immature. You can feel really strongly about a point and get your point across without CAPITALIZING yours words and adding “!!!”. Just trying to help because it’s Elul–and I’m sure that you don’t want everyone to look at you as a young immature girl.

    #1183657

    Sparkly
    Member

    reuventree555 – since they dont know me they cant possibly think the truth about me.

    #1183658

    Sparkly
    Member

    i liked my old subtitle “trying to grow” that was the best subtitle since it actually made sense!

    #1183659

    Meno
    Participant

    “Temporarily on hold” doesn’t make sense?

    #1183660

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Sometimes the people “trying to help you out” are the judgmental people that you’re best off disengaging with, and it’s Elul so isn’t this the perfect time to check yourself and not others?

    Just speaking up for Sparkly and in appreciation for her voice. She has something to say. I don’t know about you, but I rather listen to her message; it transcends through her choice of creative writing.

    Thank you

    #1183663

    reuventree555
    Participant

    @lightbrite

    Ever hear of the concept of being Dan L’Kaf Zchus? Maybe you should try it sometime…Also, you’re the one who is being judgmental. I’m trying to help Sparkly.

    #1183664

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Sparkly: Keep doing you.

    Thanks for being yourself.

    #1747918

    Captain™
    Participant

    I didn’t read this thread, but I think it gets the record for one of the longest threads in the coffeeroom at 46 pages.

    Captain™

    #1748058

    laskern
    Participant

    The Chasam Sofer explains the pasuk וסרתם מן הדרך you get off the walked on way, ועבדתם אלהים אחרים and you will worship strange gods (who are strange to the worshipers) . It leads you slowly to it. אשר לא ידעתם which you don’t realize what a small deviation from the mesorah can lead to. As he would say חדש אסור מן התורה בכל מקום ובכל זמן anything new (unaccustomed) is forbidden min haTorah everywhere and every time.

    #1749337

    ari-free
    Participant

    I read through the thread…can’t say I read every single post but it was a long read. Sad story but please never give up.

    One thing that I couldn’t help but notice though…he was described by the things he did or didn’t do. He wore jeans, didn’t keep Shabbos, etc. But really missing was the sense of his connection to Hashem. The love for Hashem for giving us the ability to see, hear and smell, the gift of just being alive. The awe of Hashem for the management of the entire universe, from the largest galaxies to the tiniest sub atomic particles at every second. This sense of appreciation for everything Hashem does seemed to be missing and I couldn’t understand why not.

    #1750303

    (Seriously?) How is anyone supposed to know how connected someone else feels to Hashem?

    #1753323

    mom12
    Participant

    wow, just checked in again..
    looks like I haven’t been here in 2 1/2 years..
    I now have 3 kids on their own derech..
    officially shomer shabbos..
    one is married.. seems to be happy..
    and yes we get along..
    the other ones have jobs, but definitely have yiddishkeit issues..
    BH they are home and we get along,
    and ‘agree to disagree’

    All the best… Just keep hanging in..
    will check in again..can’t tell you when..
    Did you read the book On Their Derech?

    #1753371

    Satmer101
    Participant

    I unfortunately have 2 children OTD …….
    One came back after 10 years and the other is on his way back

    I browsed some of the answers above … So I’m not sure if someone already discussed what I’m about to tell you.
    What I did was the following:
    I spent every Friday, just me and him and went to sightseeing places …Believe me I have seen every single zoo, museum, park etc … I took him to ball games ….
    There were times that we went to all these places and we didn’t exchange one word …..
    but I decided that I am going to enjoy my self …
    I did all that so that I would never lose the connection ….
    I know every one tells you to love him unconditionally ….
    I just couldn’t and I didn’t pretend … but I did have fun with him ….
    I sat him down and told him my values and told him openly that I don’t respect his…but since he is biologically mine,I will never ever abandon him and will help him with what he needs …..
    Since he was still a young teen … I asked if he wanted to go to a “Hebrew” school that wasn’t that frum… but I figured …better that than hanging out … and told him that I will support him if he wants to learn a trade …
    He did go to that school that taught him “Zionist” theology …
    but you know what??? he started to come back ever so slowly …he started to relate to “Tu Beshvat” Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur …and came to the seder ….

    One important thing that he told me that worked …since he is B”H back … and got married and is a very frum productive yungerman ….
    that he noticed that when he walked with me wherever and even when he wasn’t wearing a “kappel” I was still introducing him everyone as my son …. and everytime I introduced I kissed him on the cheek…
    he said that worked …
    But daven .. daven… daven ….

    #1753418

    mom12
    Participant

    My son wants me to go places with him..
    somehow with my family situation, it did not happen yet.
    But… you are giving me chizuk and I will IYH make it happen,
    He wants me to go to the movies with him..
    I said I didn’t have a problem… Only not a horror movie or thrill movie..
    and he has a list..
    He has a job, so finding time that works for both of us is difficult..
    Thanks for the chizuk

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