Going OTD in the IDF

@somejew

I cannot understand why you keep on misquoting the steipler as if he said that atchalta d/g is kfira ???

he NEVER said that .

aderaba — he says that it is NOT kfira.

honesty above all else ….
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here’s the original quote (an excerpt from a longer tshiva):
the Steipler writes:
[…]
בעיקר הדבר כך דעתי העניי נוטה שמצוה רבה להצביע לרשימה החרדית ושיש בזה ממש הצלת הדת לפי המצב כעת, כי בעניני שמירת התורה לא שייך בטחון בלא השתדלות והחובה לעשות כל הנראה באופן טבעי טוב ומועיל לקיום הדת.
ומה ששמע מעלתו שיש איסורים בדבר, הרבה נתייעצתי אם כדאי להשיב כי באמת אין רצוני כלל שחברי נטורי קרתא שיחיו לאוי”ט ישנו את דעתם, אם כי איסור אין כאן, קנאות לשמו ית’ יש כאן, וגם זה נחוץ ומועיל לשמירת הדת בחוגים רבים, וכש”כ שכל מעשיהם לש”ש ובמס”נ והמה חביבים עלי עד לאחת.
ומ”מ למע”כ בעצמו הסכמתי להשיב בפרטות אחרי שחושב אותי כמתעטע ח”ו, אבל נא שלא להראות מכתבי לאחרים כי אין שום תועלת בזה ולמה יתנו לשיחה בפי אנשים.
כתב מע’ שיש איסור בהצבעה מצד מודה בע”ז, והוא דבר שאין לו שחר, הלא המציאות בעוה”ר הוא שהשלטון בידם לע”ע ומחמת מציאות זו מצביעים ושותפים שומרי תורה להתם ע”ם להציל כפי האפשרי, ואיזו הודאה יש כאן שמסכים ברשעת הרשעים ח”ו אם בדעות טמאים שלהם, וידע מע”כ שגם לצורך קנאות אסור לגלות פנים בתורה שלא כהלכה, ומה שאינו אמת אינו מצליח כלל.
גם לענ”ד אפי’ מי שהחשב שזו אתחלתא דגאולה אע”פ שבאמת אינו כן כי הוא שינוי מגלות לגלות מר יותר שחאומות בדורות האחרונים עכ”פ לא התערבו בענינים של שמירת הדת משא”כ הני הפשים ר”ל, מ”מ מי שסובר שהשינוי משלטון נכרים לשלטון חופשים ורשעים מזרע ישראל הוא אתחלתא דגאולה אינו אלא טועה אבל לא רשע ח”ו שיהא מותר לדבר עליו להר”ר ולבזותו ברבים
[…]
Translated:
“Regarding the essence of the matter, this is how my humble opinion is inclined: it is a great mitzvah to vote for the Haredi list, and in the current situation, this constitutes a veritable rescue of religion [הצלת הדת]. This is because, in matters of Torah observance, the concept of trust in God without human effort [השתדלות] is inapplicable. The obligation is to do everything that appears, in the natural course of events, to be good and effective for the preservation of religion.
As for what your honor has heard, that there are prohibitions involved in this matter—I have deliberated extensively whether it is worthwhile to respond. In truth, it is not my desire at all that my colleagues of Neturei Karta, may they live long and good days, Amen, should change their minds. Although there is no prohibition here, there is religious zealotry for the sake of His name, may it be blessed, and this too is necessary and beneficial for the preservation of religion in many circles. This is especially so given that all their actions are for the sake of Heaven and with self-sacrifice, and they are beloved to me, every single one.
Nevertheless, to your esteemed honor himself, I have agreed to respond in detail, particularly since you consider me, Heaven forfend [ח”ו], to be a mocker. But I request that you not show my letter to others, as there is no benefit in it, and why should it be given over to public discussion?
Your honor wrote that there is a prohibition in voting because it constitutes ‘acknowledging idolatry’ [מודה בע”ז]. This is a matter that has no basis. Is it not the reality, due to our many sins, that the government is currently in their hands? It is because of this reality that Torah observers vote and participate among them in order to save what is possible. What acknowledgment is there here that one agrees, Heaven forfend, with the wickedness of the wicked or with their impure ideologies? And your esteemed honor should know that even for the purpose of zealotry, it is forbidden to misinterpret the Torah contrary to Halakha [לגלות פנים בתורה שלא כהלכה], and that which is not true will not succeed at all.
Also, in my humble opinion, even one who thinks that this is the beginning of the redemption [אתחלתא דגאולה]—even though in truth it is not so, for it is merely a change from one exile to a more bitter exile, as the nations in recent generations at least did not interfere in matters of religious observance, which is not the case with these licentious ones [הני הפשים], may God save us —nevertheless, one who holds that the change from the rule of gentiles to the rule of freethinkers and wicked people from zera Yisrael is the beginning of the redemption is nothing but mistaken. He is not, Heaven forfend, a wicked person, concerning whom it would be permissible to speak evil speech [לשון הרע] and to shame him publicly.”

@yankel-berel
I would note that
1) He does NOT reject or in any way push back against the claim that zionism is “avoda zureh”, rather the Steipler argues that voting is NOT being modeh to that avoda zureh, rather trying to contain its damage.
2) He is explicitly that claims of אתחלתא דגאולה are FALSE, they are not compatible with Torah. That means that the belief is kefira in the (Torah) Truth. Believe in anything false is by definition kefira in the truth. (He is also clear that someone who mistakenly believes that the Torah teaches this zionist lie is NOT a kofer, as you and I have discussed extensively)

@somejew

מי שסובר שהשינוי משלטון נכרים לשלטון חופשים ורשעים מזרע ישראל הוא אתחלתא דגאולה אינו אלא טועה אבל לא רשע ח”ו שיהא
מותר לדבר עליו להר”ר ולבזותו ברבים

whoever thinks that this government is athaltah d/g is only “mistaken” , but not a rasha has veshalom ….
its assur to speak lashon hara about him ….

ad kan the staiplers words

comes somejew and ADDS to the staipler —- if he is “mistaken” , that means , according to somejew , that this should be classified as kfira ….

that’s quite a jump ….

Mr somejew –

a mistake is nothing more than a … mistake , but not kfira ….
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hatam soffer is reputed to have warned his talmidim : I do not care if you misappropriate and use my hidushim in your own name

but I do warn you : I will never tolerate you saying your own hidushim in my name …

that is , in essence , what somejew is doing here .

he inserts his own opinions in to the staiplers words , even though the staipler never said them

and then somejew turns around and ‘proves’ his own opinions are correct — you see , the staipler says the same ….
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bottom line, athalta d/g is not kfira , its a mistake

the proponent of athalta d/g, while mistaken, is not a kofer , not a rasha

he is kasher le’edut accepted by all rabanim and it is an issur hamur to speak ill of him

unlike , lehavdil , a proponent of the kfira of reform or the kfira of trinity, who is a clear kofer and passul le’edut all over the globe in all batei din

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@AAQ

not sure why you keep on [deliberately ?] ignoring the multitudes who were forced away from religion by the medina ?
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