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It looks like Katan still did not convince us of the alternative history of EY under his wise leadership. Nobody believes that Brits would have governed EY for the last 80 years. It would be Assad or Arafat or Saddam. Where would be all sephardim going? drafted into Iraqi and Iranian armies to fight each other (million people died in that war in 1980s)? bombed by russian aircraft in Aleppo? slaughtered by ISIS like Yazidis? what would happen with Russian and Ukrainian Jews? They would be also killing each other right now drafted in the slavic armies.
Imagine that this would be a real history. You would now approach chacham katan and ask him – do you regret your policies that lead to so many Yidden dying? He would say – gezeras Shamayim, like the advice my teachers gave to dtay in Europe before WW2. Don’t blame me.
Chazon Ish NEVER stated that dati le’umi wine is yayin nesech.
None of chazon ish devotees ever considered dati leumi touched wine as yayin nesech.
This a verifiable fact .
There are hundreds of chazon ish devotees in BB , serious talmidei hahamim .
Utter baloney.
.Rav Elchonon states b&w in kovetz maamarim that “Dati leumi” is literal idolatry.
—REW z’l did not issue any halacha psak that “Dati leumi” is literal idolatry.
Far from it.
This was a ma’amar hashkafa , and meant as mussar vehit’orerut.
Not lehalacha.
Pashut to any beginner ….
.Brisker Rav published a KK signed by the Gerrer Rebbe and many others that “Dati Leumi” education is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”.”
—KK was referring to dati le’umi hinuch in their era and their locale.
Nothing more.
And , again, the KK was lesheim hitrachkut , not to entrust your children to them.
Not lehalacha.
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Notice to katan .
sfarim hakdoshim write that ka’as is heresy .
Wine of a ko’es is not yayin nesech ….
.notice to katan –
All ‘real non-Zionist posekim’ paskin halacha lema’aseh, that
the subsequent children of a grusha, divorced with a get signed by fully frum athalta digeuola believers , to be ksherim lavo bakahal .
this is pashut and also easily verifiable .
this is fully in line with steipler who unequivocally states
its assur to speak lashon hara about dati le’umi as they are not yatsa michlal amitecha …
.
.
.Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman died in year 1941 of the Common Era.
He never saw the modern State of Israel, which started in 1948 CE.
yb:
You cannot on your own invent that this was hashkafa and only “mussar”, as opposed to being actual halacha. It was also intended as mussar, though.
Elsewhere in his letters, for example, he wrote that one should not escape Europe to America using “Religious Zionist” institutions like YU but rather only via Torah Vodaath or the like. That was certainly mussar, too, but it was just as certainly also intended halachically.You also cannot on your own invent that it only applied to the chinuch at that time but not at other times. That’s silly and also baseless. The idolatry and heresy is at least the same, if not worse.
yb:
You’re welcome to believe whatever you want but, yes, they did say that, as posted above.613 nobody is having a din vechesbbon over an opinion your worshipping Satan. For the record. God isn’t evil and cruel. Like you believe
Maybe orthodoxy isn’t realistic in real life scenarios. Lol it can only be done in a bubble. That’s why it’s not biblical in any shape or form. Cuz the Torah itself can be lived in in _all_ realities and applies perfectly to every real life scenario. You see what I’m saying. .orthodox judism on the other hand is not realistic at all. Sorry
none > maybe orthodoxy isn’t realistic in real life scenarios. .. Cuz the Torah itself can be lived in in _all_ realities
You are right on realism, you are just confused what are the varieties that fall within Torah Judaism. Gemora describes various rabbinical rulings in response to real-life behaviors: in some cases, rules are stricter for less-observant people to make sure they don’t get confused; in other cases, rules are simplified. Feedback is also important – there was a takana to forbid non-Jewish oil to minimize mingling, but it was too much for the people and it lapsed. Rules of ketubah and organization of schools were tweaked over hundreds of years to match how people behave (husbands were too quick to divorce when they got angry when ketubah money was set aside in the house, so it was changed to a lien on property; not all fathers could teach their sons or drive them to a far-away school, so small local schools were eventually created).
Now that a few of our coffee room regulars have smeared a few hundred thousand of their fellow Orthodox brethren (by quoting questionable quotes from gedloim regarding the DL shita – not the members themselves) it looks like no one has produced any real study with actual data regarding the effect of the IDF on personal religious commitment.
If so, it would seem anyone who makes a speculative statement such as “50%-70% of frum boys (even mizrachi, he said more than once) go off the derech due to being in the IDF,” is using made-up statistics and should be condemned for putting such an idea in people’s minds.
I would even say that radicals such Hakatan would disagree with such a statement. He would likely argue that anyone who joins the IDF is by definition OTD, so that the percentage of boys who go OTD in the IDF would be zero.
Rocky:
What you just suggested is, effectively, that if 50% – 70% of IDF enlistees who join the Zionist Army while religious end up being irreligious upon their discharge from the IDF, that if no official scientific study documenting this was that conducted, then we should all bury our heads in the sand and ignore this phenomenon and simply let it go on producing more and more and more irreligious people out of formerly observant Jews — because, after all, no scientific study was ever conducted.
There’s never been a scientific study proving that religious people who started engaging in znus became OTD; so Rocky will argue that “it would seem anyone who makes a speculative statement such as “50%-70% of frum boys go off the derech due to engaging in znus, is using made-up statistics and should be condemned for putting such an idea in people’s minds.”
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