going to football games

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  • #872236

    TheGoq
    Participant

    I went to the garden tonight for the St. Johns West Virginia basketball game (Johnnies win in a rout 78-62) and i saw they had a Carlos and Gabbys stand on one of the levels but it wasnt in operation tonite the stand was all wrapped in plastic wrap wondering if anyone knows about it.

    #872237

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Longarekel,

    Who says it has to be considered avoda zara to us and not to them if a ger toshav if considered a ger toshav if he believes in shutfus (not avoda zara for him so keeps sheva mitzvos) then there’s no aveira of lo sichaneim

    #872238

    Sam2
    Participant

    CA: Shittuf is A”Z even for non-Jews. I think that’s fairly Pashut, actually.

    See the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch on Lo Sechonaim and I’ll assume that the Minhag relies on him.

    #872239

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    You cannot claim its Avodah Zarah for us, You are not allowed to make your own P’shats, unless you are a posek , Name some poseks who said it was.

    According to those links some poseks do hold that its assur like Rav Moshe, but not for A’Z, but other reasons like bittul torah.

    #872240

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    I googled christianity isn’t avoda zara and I got a website (maybe a blog) that quotes the meiri (az 2b and 4b) that states believing in shituf isn’t az for goyim and the rema (I can’t remember where) agrees with that

    #872241

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I think it wasnt clear, Some here claimed that that sporting events was avodah Zarah, it was not about another religion

    #872242

    sam4321
    Participant

    Coffee Addict: The Rambam held that it is avoda zara. Nowadays it is still not so pashut because some of the contemporary poskim still consider them to be idolaters.

    #872243

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Sam,

    That’s good if you follow the rambam however yeish al mi lismoch (meiri and the rama)

    #872244

    Another name
    Participant

    On another note, Costco’s is offering a great deal on Super Bowl tickets/ package 😉

    #872245

    GeshmakMan
    Participant

    Its one of those “activities” that fall under “there’s nothing wrong with it”. This is true, but one should make sure the majority of his activities in his/her life are “positive”. Going to a game might be fun, create memories for father/son etc, but shouldn’t be the essence of one’s life.

    The fact that chinese auctions offer sporting events tickets, and that they sell Kosher food there, and that “Frum” Camps go on trips, or that they have minyanim there doesn’t make it Muttar. There is no need to make it Muttar since it isn’t Assur.

    #872246

    DJHocker
    Member

    NO SHAILAH! 100% MUTAR AND ENCOURAGED!!! if your a jets fan its a diffrent story bec A. its not a football game if only one team shows up (vehameivin yavin) and B. cheerleader…………….BLEED BLUE!!!!!!!!!!!! LETS GO GIANTS BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    #872247

    longarekel
    Member

    coffee addict: See the rest of my post. If he believes in shituf he is not a ger toshav. The (simple) reason for lo sechanaim is so we shouldn’t come to do what they do. So if it’s avoda zara for us it would be assur to praise them. BTW shituf is avoda zara for anyone according to most poskim. zahavasdad: I don’t know what raul wallenberg beleived in but if he was a religious christian it would be assur to praise him. You could thank him but you cannot praise him. Going to gehennom will not be necessary, as one can always do teshuva.

    #872249

    Loyal Jew
    Member

    Sam2 asked 3 months ago: “Darchei Ha’emori? (about why it’s assur to take part in sporting events as a player) How do you get Darchei Ha’emori?”

    I didn’t get to it. The rav of my shul at the time mentioned it a few years ago when someone in our neighborhood was caught having joined a bowling league. It refers to adopting goyish customs and culture even when they don’t involve avoda zora r”l, like slapping palms etc. I wouldn’t dredge this up now except that RSR Hirsch zt”l says much the same thing in his peirush on this week’s parsha, and no one thinks of him as NK, extremist, machmir, etc.

    #872250

    Sam2
    Participant

    CA: I’m sorry I missed your post 3 months ago. The Mechaber (in the uncensored editions) says B’feirush that a cross is Avodah Zarah. The Rema there doesn’t disagree, which he should (because it’s in O.C. 114, I think; and while the Rema often relies on us knowing what he Paskened earlier, he very rarely relies on what he will Pasken later). And the Meiri’s Shittah on Avodah Zarah is so Mechudash that I highly doubt any Posek would ever even use him as a Snif Lehakel, even in an extreme Sha’as Had’chak.

    #872251

    takahmamash
    Participant

    The rav of my shul at the time mentioned it a few years ago when someone in our neighborhood was caught having joined a bowling league.

    Was caught? You make it sound like the person was doing something illegal.

    Maybe s/he just wanted some exercise and/or relaxation. It’s not a crime, you know.

    #872252

    BTGuy
    Participant

    Hashem gave us all the other sports for those who can’t play football! Football is a great sport.

    Cheerleaders are a problem. On the other hand, going into a Target or Walmart from May through August is the same problem multiplied by a lot.

    Go Sanchebow!

    #872253

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Please tell us what is ASSUR about Bowling?

    #872254

    Loyal Jew
    Member

    Takahmamash and Zahavasdad, rolling a bowling ball isn’t assur. It just has to be done in a separate bowling alley where goyish music isn’t played, where it’s closed on Shabbos (I’m speaking of EY), where no one cares if you break the rules (bechutoseihem lo selechu), where there are no spectators (moshav leitzim), etc. All of which, if it’s done without bitul Torah and bitul zman. Joining a league makes it a sport, which comes with all the above problems plus mi-darchei ha-emori, which relates to goyish customs that sports tend to have. Even if one can sidestep all of this, he’s in a bad mar’is ayin situation. As for being “caught” at something “illegal,” he was baal koreh in a good shul during all that time and trampled on the tzibur’s standards without even asking them what they thought about it. Gneivas daas was illegal when last spotted.

    #872255

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    where no one cares if you break the rules (bechutoseihem lo selechu)

    Please explain why adhering to the rules of bowling is a violation of “bechukoseihem…” but adhering to the rules of softball, soccer, basketball, etc. (as occurs in camps every summer) and chess, backgammon and other games (which occur in numerous yeshivos all over the world) is not?

    The Wolf

    #872256

    squeak
    Participant

    “he was baal koreh in a good shul during all that time and trampled on the tzibur’s standards without even asking them what they thought about it.”

    Interesting. Whom do you think is obligated to inform who? Do the tzibbur’s standards obviously preclude bowling that he should think to ask permission? Or would you say that until the tzibbur expresses a specific standard against bowling, he can bowl without a guilty conscience? I guess it depends what tzibbur, and as you are pretending to be a RBS kanoi it could make sense in your case.

    #872257

    writersoul
    Member

    Personally, I just find football, as a sport where people attempt to injure and tackle other people for no good reason, objectionable in and of itself, and I would not go to a game. Then again, I’m talking about football games. I have personally been to four Mets games, an Nationals game and three Nets games, and I had a blast. I think it’s more the experience, even though I don’t like sports. However, I believe that the people who are saying it is wrong probably should not take their kids if they object to the things they mention in their posts. My parents made their decision about letting us though, and they’re fine with it— you may not be okay with my family’s standards.

    #872258

    Sam2
    Participant

    Loyal Jew: No sports are Darchei Ha’emori and very few are Bechukoseihem (though for royal sports like tennis and polo I can hear a Tayna of Bechukoseihem). You might want to learn what those actually mean before you say what falls under them.

    #872259

    Loyal Jew
    Member

    Wolf, Squeak, etc., I used bowling as a mashal because it was the one we had to deal with in shul. Other sports (in fact, the whole modern amusement industry) come with the same issues. Darchei ha-emori doesn’t relate to the game itself but to the customs that come along with it. What a given yeshiva allows for relaxation is the RY’s call. As for my being a kanoi, I wasn’t involved in the incident and don’t know how it was cleared up, except that the man apologized and moved to a different shul. There was no pashkvil, spitting, or rock throwing. Finally, it is pshat halacha that a tzibur doesn’t have to accept klei kodesh who violate its standards. Our tzibur doesn’t hold by kvias ittim for goyish games and saw his behavior as gneivas daas apart from the other problems.

    #872260

    Sam2
    Participant

    Loyal Jew: Please explain to us what Darchei Ha’emori means and how sports fall under that.

    #872261

    Loyal Jew
    Member

    The explanation given back then (I’m relying on memory) was that apart from the “chukoseihem” of the Emori (avoda zora), there are “darchei ha-emori” (“secular” goyish ways). These aren’t avoda zora but should be avoided anyway. It’s not specific to sports, it concerns products of goyish culture in general. Standing for the sirens in EY might be another example.

    #872262

    Sam2
    Participant

    Loyal Jew: That’s a cute way to read the Issur, but it’s just not true. Chukas Hagoyim is a Machlokes Rishonim (and Poskim) whether or not it applies to things that Goyim do as a matter of course or whether it has to be based in religion. I believe we Pasken that it has to be based in religion, or at least for the sake of being ostentatious. (See Yoreh Deah 177, I believe, with the Nosei Keilim and especially the Gra in S”K 1 and 3, if I recall correctly.) As I mentioned above, maybe royal sports like tennis and polo could fall under this category. Maybe.

    Darchei Ha’emori means superstitious practices that are based in Avodah Zarah (or at least Kishuf). It has nothing to do with “secular goyish ways”. See the Gemara in Shabbos 67a going over to 67b and Chullin 77b going over to 78a, if I recall correctly. Also see the Tshuvas Harashba. (I don’t remember what Siman but the numbers 1:181 and 1:187 stick out in my mind. It could be anywhere though; those Simanim are probably other things.) Your “explanation” of Darchei Ha’emori is so far off that it would be a violation of Bal Tosif according to the Rambam if a Beis Din would Pasken that way.

    #872263

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf, Squeak, etc., I used bowling as a mashal because it was the one we had to deal with in shul. Other sports (in fact, the whole modern amusement industry) come with the same issues. Darchei ha-emori doesn’t relate to the game itself but to the customs that come along with it.

    Oh no, you don’t. You didn’t answer my question, you deflected away from it.

    I challenged your statement that adhering to the rules of bowling is a violation of the lav of “u’vchukoseihem lo teileichu.” I said nothing about the lav of “darkei HeEmori.” Please answer the challenge I raised and not the one I didn’t. To wit:

    Please explain why adhering to the rules of bowling is a violation of “bechukoseihem…” but adhering to the rules of softball, soccer, basketball, etc. (as occurs in camps every summer) and chess, backgammon and other games (which occur in numerous yeshivos all over the world) is not?

    The Wolf

    #872264

    Is lawn bowling just as bad as bowling in an alley?

    #872265

    Josh31
    Participant

    “Standing for the sirens in EY might be another example.”

    If you cannot stand respectfully when the siren blows, you should not wear any forms of clothing that may have non Jewish origins.

    #872266

    2qwerty
    Participant

    What ever happened with cofee addict? Did he change his screen name? It’s not like him to just quit the cr.

    #872267

    Loyal Jew
    Member

    In an ironic way, the challenges to what I wrote somehow prove the point. On each count, one can use one’s knowledge to learn out a heter or even deny that there’s a problem to begin with. But after all that, no one here would consider doing any of these things (sports, backgammon, etc.) in any way other than a brief diversion. Wolf, I played games in camp and in recess, and the rules were always “adapted” or just ignored because taking them seriously meant an inappropriately high level of involvement. You’re okay with a chess player as your baal koreh, but a grandmaster?

    #872268

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    You’re okay with a chess player as your baal koreh, but a grandmaster?

    And, once again, you’re shifting the argument. The question at hand isn’t whether excessive involvement (to the point of becoming a grandmaster) is a violation of the lav of “bchukoseihem.” The point is whether following the rules of a game (as you stated) is a violation of the lav.

    I doubt that many people “adapt” the rules of chess or backgammon or any other game to some yeshivish standard. When I play a game (just about any game) with my kids, we play by the rules. When two bochrim play a game during a break in yeshiva, they play by the rules. Please explain how simply playing a game according to the rules is a violation of “bchukoseihem.”

    The Wolf

    #872269

    Sam2
    Participant

    Loyal Jew: Everyone has “house rules” for some game(s) because they enjoy a particular variation more than the original. And I’m sure you guys were Makpid on following your own rules. Or are you saying that raising kids to be cheaters somehow teaches them better the value of time?

    #872270

    derszoger
    Member

    Most people bend the rules when playing Monopoly. I’m sure there are other examples.

    #872271

    Sam2
    Participant

    Ders: Yes, they bend the official rules. But no one bends the rules that they established for themselves at the start of the game. That would be called cheating.

    #872272

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Forget cheating. You can’t play a game without rules. It isn’t a game anymore.

    #872273

    Loyal Jew
    Member

    With all the debate about exactly what constitutes darchei ha-emori and playing by the rules, is anyone here seriously arguing that it’s OK to participate in goyish sports?

    #872274

    Sam2
    Participant

    Loyal Jew: What makes a sport Goyish? Because it’s physical activity and non-Jews thought up the rules? What’s wrong with some Yeshivah guys playing basketball or baseball? It’s brought down that R’ Chaim Soloveitchik boxed with his Talmidim. Is that a “Goyish sport”?

    And debate about exactly what constitutes Darchei Ha’emori? If by “debate” you mean that you made up an Issur and I called you out on it, then yes, there was a debate.

    #872275

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Rabbi Berel Wein was once RUNNING in Jerusalem in a sweat Suit and Rav Shlomo Zalman Auberbach saw him and he was a little embarrassed.

    Rav Shlomo sensed this and said to him NU your health is important to

    #872276

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    With all the debate about exactly what constitutes darchei ha-emori and playing by the rules,

    Which, apparently, you’re going to ignore because you don’t have any answers.

    Again — how is following a game of chess, backgammon (or any other game) by the rules a violation of “bchukoseihem” as you implied?

    The Wolf

    #872277

    Josh31
    Participant

    “is anyone here seriously arguing that it’s OK to participate in goyish sports?”

    Worse is arguing in a mixed blog (men & women) in a non Jewish language. Most sports are single sex with a minimal use of non Jewish language while playing.

    #872278

    Josh31
    Participant

    “Most people bend the rules when playing Monopoly.”

    Better Chinuch (education) against Gezel (theft and dishonesty) is not to do so.

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