Going to Uman for the Hock

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  • #1578013

    1
    Participant

    So I’ve been brought up with Rosh Hashanah being a very serious day, to the level of yom kippur (sans the fast). I’m kind of bored of the same style of Rosh Hashana davening. I feel like it doesn’t speak to me as it once has. I have this internal debate on whether I should go to Uman for Rosh Hashanah. On one hand, I don’t like the idea of supporting Ukraine financially and I don’t think Rosh Hashanah should be a time to do a road trip. On the other hand, I want to see what the big deal is. I enjoy different religious experiences. I like the idea of seeing different types of Jews. If I never go, I’ll feel that I’m missing out; on the opposite side of the coin, maybe that’s not what Rosh Hashanah should be about. Should I cave and go once, just to get it out of my system? I’m not into chasidus and rebbes, but I enjoy different experience.

    #1578400

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    It sounds like u made up your made, your just looking to find someone to legitimise your decision.

    #1578408

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If you want to go, then go it isnt that big a deal if you go, you will still be davening B’Tzibur as long as you dont get up with the partying crowd, you might get something out of it. Go and enjoy and if you have a bad time, then dont go again

    #1578413

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    If you think that Rosh HaShanah is all about an experience, then by all means, go to Uman.
    If you think that Rosh HaShanah is about recognizing Hashem as the ruler of everything, and about davening with proper concentration, then do NOT go to Uman.

    #1578370

    Goldilocks
    Participant

    Maybe speak to someone who has actually been there and ask them what it’s like?
    Rosh Hashana is serious; if you arrive at Uman and find that you don’t like it, there’s no “redo” option.

    #1578436

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    He is davening with a Minyan in Uman, you can daven anywhere. Hashem hears your tefilot in NY, Jerusalem or Uman

    If he doesnt like it , then just dont go back next year, its not a big deal

    Uman isnt my thing and I am not going and have no plans to ever go (I have been invited) but I dont see the problem for those who do go

    #1578480

    MDG
    Participant

    Try a different minyan and nusach. How about Syrian or Satmar, for examples ?

    #1578468

    mentsch1
    Participant

    If you are being serious though, I would really speak to people who have recently been there. Sure you will have an “experience” but you will also (probably) be exposed to a dark underside. You can easily find that dark underside in various online newspapers. Is seeing a bunch of bad apples desecrate RH worth the experience?
    Frankly
    I can’t understand why people don’t have an “experience” in Yerushalyim or Chevron or Tzefas. If a Brooklyn shul is too intense why not sit all day by the kotel? I don’t get why Jews run away from EY for yom tov.

    #1578540

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I have spoken to my neighbor about the dark side and they are very frum and they answered that you sort of have to look for it, if you are not looking for the dark side, you wont find it

    #1578562

    1
    Participant

    I probably should go to EY for RH. If I bad my own business I’d go every year from RH through Sukkos

    #1578583

    Avi K
    Participant

    ZD, in EY it is a local call.

    #1578604

    A Breslover Chassid
    Participant

    As someone that is traveling to uman for over 20 Years I would like to say that the experience of what a real hashana that it feels there is something that everyone try try once, the achdus of so many different types and ststripes of people uniting together and screaming HAMELECH , where else in the world do you find so many people crying themselves out ,doing teshuva …they are not here here asking for money or any other thing ,they came for one thing ! Hashem we want to return to you, and that atmosphere Is felt in the air ,

    Reb Nachman is the one that shows a yid no matter where he is to how to recoginize his own strength and how to connect with Hashem , he left the hizchazkus that is so much needed for our generation.
    He said he is ready to do anything he can possibly do for anyone that comes to his tzion rosh hashana and does tesuva which by the way that’s what he does too.. hundreds of people that are so far and removed get a hirur tesuva by his kever.
    Now of course out of 60,000 people there’s gonna be some party types etc .. but how come nobody speaks abt the other thousands of people that are inspired or the big kloiz where over 10,000 people daven from 6 am till 4pm (with no brakes) and it’s one of the most ernst and beautiful davenings in the world!?!
    So My Dear Friend , Yes! Uman Rosh Hashana is the place to place and time to be if your looking for a unbelievable once-in-a – lifetime experience , trust me you will not forget it and u will feel elevated gurenteed

    P.S.
    Abt leaving EY or leaving your family for y”t theres is a lot to say , but let me ask you for a million dollar deal would you ask the same question!?!
    It’s Rosh Hashana We need the best Lawer!!!

    #1578607

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    I think it’s a great experience. You do need to be well prepared though and be on guard. I know too many people who tried drugs there and went crazy…there’s a lot going on.

    But if you stick with a good crowd, go daven, and don’t accept anything but food and water from others to put into your body (and don’t accept anything to put in your suitcase) you should be fine.

    I know lots of other people who WAIT for it every year!

    @damoshe
    @mentsch1

    People are very unique. You don’t find yourself having a better connecting in certain shuls? I feel more connected by the kosel? Our environment does greatly affect us and can help move us spiritually. I love nature, I feel more connected davening in a forest than me own room or a bus ANYTIME.

    #1578611

    assurnet
    Participant

    There are a thousand and one things I would like to say about this question but I’m just going to limit it to this – before I went to Uman I always thought Rosh Hashana was about yom hadin and davening for the best possible upcoming year.

    While that is all still true and good and well, spending Rosh Hashana in Uman taught me that’s all just the tofel – the ikar of Rosh Hashana is actually about crowning Hashem as the king.

    #1578615

    yutz
    Participant

    RABBI NACHMAN’S ROSH HASHANAH
    My Rosh Hashanah is greater than everything. I cannot understand how it is that if my followers really believe in me they are not all meticulous about coming to me for Rosh Hashanah. No- one should be absent! My whole mission is Rosh Hashanah.
    Everyone, without exception, who counts himself as one of my followers or takes heed of what I say should come to me for Rosh Hashanah. Anyone who is worthy of being with me for Rosh Hashanah should be very happy: “Go your way, eat the fat and drink the sweet, for the joy of the Lord is your strength” (Nehemiah8:10).
    Chayey Moharan #403
    My Rosh Hashanah is something completely new – and God knows it is not something I inherited from my fathers. God Himself gave me the gift of knowing what Rosh Hashanah is. That all of you are dependent on my Rosh Hashanah goes without saying. The entire world depends on my Rosh Hashanah!
    Chayey Moharan #405
    During Rabbi Nachman’s lifetime, it was the practice for his followers to gather around him each year for Rosh Hashanah. Just as they had come to him each year when he lived in Breslov, so in September 1810 several hundred traveled to Uman to be with him for what was to be the last Rosh Hashanah of his life.
    During this event Rabbi Nachman repeatedly emphasized the greatness and importance of his followers’ gathering around him on Rosh Hashanah. Reb Nosson understood that the Rebbe wanted his followers to gather by him even after his death.
    The next year Reb Nosson went to Uman for Rosh Hashanah together with about 60 of the Rebbe’s followers, thus instituting the annual Rosh Hashanah gathering of Breslover Chassidim. This continued until the mid 1930’s, when the communist repression made it impossible to continue the public prayers. Even so, secret Rosh Hashanah services were held in Uman even in the darkest years of the communist tyranny.
    The public Rosh Hashanah gathering in Uman resumed in 1988 attended by about 250 people. The following year the numbers grew to over a thousand and doubled the year afterward, after which they increased exponentially every year to the point where today tens of thousands travel every year to Uman from Israel, Europe, America and other parts of the world in order to attend Rabbi Nachman’s Rosh Hashanah.

    #1578779

    mentsch1
    Participant

    yutz
    the quotes from rav nachman clearly imply during his lifetime. how can you call it rav nachmans rh when he isn’t alive?

    #1578783

    apushatayid
    Participant

    The subject is “going to Uman for the hock”. Not to be mamlich hashem, not to experience greater kavana by tefillah, not be inspiored by the masses. The hock. The pre rosh hashana woodstock like concerts and the woodstock like activitiy. Lets focus on what was asked. Anyone still advocating going for “the hock”?

    #1578802

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Shopping613: I never said it wouldn’t be a good davening. The thread title was “for the hock”, not “for an uplifting davening”, so my point was that this is the wrong outlook for Rosh HaShanah.

    yutz: I have major issues with what you quoted. So R’ Nachman said that he purposely disregarded the Mesorah he had from his father because he heard Hashem tell him to change it? We have a rule of Torah lo b’Shamayim hii, and Nevuah is long gone. Hashem gave the Torah to the ENTIRE nation and we have a Mesorah since then. How can one Rav, as big as he may be, claim that he will throw away a Mesorah because he heard a voice in his head?
    Then, he says that the entire world depends on HIS Rosh haShanah. We say in davening every day, in Shema Koleinu, that Hashem hears the prayers of EVERY Jew. No prayer goes unanswered. So how can he claim that the entire world depended on his personal Rosh haShanah? Where did he get that idea from?

    #1578822

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Going to Uman for the Hock”

    Dont.

    #1578838

    no nonsense
    Participant

    Eilu V’eilu…
    I am positive that those who go, have a most amazing uplifting Yom Tov.

    Personally, I can’t imagine spending such spectacular days away from my family. The Zechus of Davening next to my children Shetichyu is incredible. They get to learn and follow our Minhagim and hear Divrei Chizzuk from our Rov.
    Throughout the meals I have the opportunity to teach them about the Yom Tov and enjoy sharing the experience of all the Minhagim. There are just a few years where we have the chance to do this.

    One poignant point: Rosh Hashana is a Yom Tov. Its main focus is to be Mamlich Hakadosh Baruch Hu. Many Poskim hold that we bedavka don’t do Teshuva. Some hold in fact that it is Assur to do so.

    #1578967

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    What is hock?

    #1578982

    mentsch1
    Participant

    Yutz and others
    I’m sure it can be an amazing experience to have so many yidden be mamlich the RBSO
    But seriously
    If Rav Nachman was alive and he saw so many yidden being yored to the Ukraine for RH
    Don’t you think he would grab them by the payos and shout “how can you give up an opportunity to be mamlich the RBSO in his house ?!?!”

    #1579023

    CTRebbe
    Participant

    I do not know of any poskim who hold that we don’t do Teshuva on Rosh Hashana. As far as I know Rosh Hashana is counted as 20% of the aseres Yemei Teshuva and its a pretty heavy 20% at that. No one says it is asur to do teshuva during the aseres yemei teshuva

    #1579100

    1
    Participant

    CTRebbe
    In fact, there is a litvishe minhag to say selichos on Rosh Hashana

    #1579099

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Who wants to be busy with “hock” on the yom had in.

    Ctlawyer. In your profession, how would a judge feel if a defendant in his courtroom was preoccupied with “hock”.

    #1579116

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Regarding teshuva on Rosh haShanah:
    Rav Moshe Shmuel Shapiro, zt”l said the following. The Gemara in Kiddushin says that if someone is mekadesh a woman on the condition that he is a tzaddik gamur, it is a good kiddushin, even if the man is a pure Rasha. Why? Because maybe in his heart he was thinking about teshuva. The Minchas Chinuch is bothered by this. Teshuva isn’t an instant thing, it’s a 4-step process which can taker a lot of time! So how can this rasha become a tzaddik gamur just by thinking it in his heart?
    R’ Shapiro explained that taking the first step to turn your life around is an important step in repentance. Just making that commitment is the first step, and when you follow it through, you are considered to have been a tzaddik from the starting point, even though there was no teshuva for a specific sin at that point.
    So too, on Rosh haShanah, the shofar is there to wake us up and tell us it’s time to do teshuva. We don’t do teshuva for specific sins. There is no vidui said, there is almost no mention at all of repentance on Rosh haShanah. But we take that first step, and heed the call of the shofar to turn ourselves around. After Rosh haShanah, we begin the actual teshuva process, with the 4 steps it requires. But on Rosh haShanah itself, we need to make that commitment to correct ourselves.

    #1579144

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Find a new shul/shtiebel where both the daveners and the davening energizes you not just for Rosh Hashanah but for shabbos and year-round. Perhaps a shul where there is more spontaneious singing, less schnmoozing, where the rav interjects a d’var torah throughout the davening rather one long “sermon” , where the daveners greet you with a simile and an honest sense of care for your well being. All of these and other factors will provide you with more long-term ruchniyus and ahavas hashem than a one-time “pilgrimage” to the epic-center of anti-semitimism in Eastern Europe.

    #1579149

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    People have posted videos of Uman on the internet and ive seen them , its not for me but it certainly looks more appealing and lively than other places

    Even the Kotel, On Fridays nights during Birthright season its very lively, but the shabbos the next day is pretty dead (The Kotel is not supposed to be a happy or lively place to visit, but this is the reality)

    #1579182

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “it certainly looks more appealing and lively than other places”

    So do many nightclubs. doesnt mean you should go.

    #1579227

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    part of Chassidus is to make things more lively, again its not for me, but it does appeal to some people

    #1579360

    1
    Participant

    Gadolhadorah most shuls are like that

    #1579515

    yytz
    Participant

    1: I wouldn’t go for fun or because it’s interesting to see different kinds of Jews. However, you said you enjoy different kinds of religious experience. Does that mean you enjoy them in the sense that you find them fun or mentally stimulating or something? Or do you mean that it actually helps you with your avodas Hashem? If you think going to Uman will enhance your avodas Hashem, consider going–if not, not.

    On the other hand, perhaps your desire to go to Uman is a way of your neshama telling to to draw close to Breslov in some way. Try learning Breslov chassidus—perhaps some Sichos HaRan or Likutei Eitzos or, if you want something more challenging, Likutei Moharan. If you feel a connection to Rebbe Nachman’s teachings and that is what is driving you to go, that’s a better reason.

    Keep in mind that Breslov teachings are not just for Breslovers–many Litvish (such as R’ Dessler and R’ Lopian), sephardic (Baba Sali and his son R’ Meir) and non-Breslov chassidic rabbonim (Satmar, etc.) have all praised Rebbe Nachman’s teachings. There is even a group of Lubavitchers who attend R”H in Uman, even though Lubavitchers are known for exclusively studying the chassidus of their own Rebbes.

    Don’t make the decision based on anonymous posters. Ask your Rav, ask a Breslov Rav, ask your family, etc…

    #1579593

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    Everyone is getting hung up on the fact he used the word hock, it’s slang. He just meant to find out what is so great there that everyone loves.

    #1579612

    mentsch1
    Participant

    Yytz
    I know this may come as a shock but my comments do not come from a lack of appreciation for Breslov . I have numerous connections to Breslov Torah and a couple of Chashuv talmedei chachumim ( yes for those who don’t know, there are plenty of real chassidim who don’t appreciate the crazies)
    The older I get the more I realize that running after the current “Jewish” craze of the masses is detrimental.
    Be it wearing red strings around your wrist, doing the latest segulah craze or running to Uman. Personally I find that usually what the masses are running to is something that under the layers of “kedusha “ is really something fun or “easy”. Easier then developing a real sensitive connection to the RBSO.
    In either case I can have philosophical questions. And I’m still waiting for an answer to mine. Did Rav Nachman actually say that it would be beneficial to leave EY to come to his kever? Did he even say just come to my kever for RH?

    #1579677

    1
    Participant

    But where i live the high holidays are dry. Yes the niggunim are nice. The chazzan has a nice voice. The people shuckel 90 miles per hour with eyes closed, and the rov gives nice speeches. But its the same style every year and it doesnt really feel authentic. This sullies my connection.

    #1579699

    1
    Participant

    The underlying issue is, should rosh Hashanah be a time for trips? Maybe making a trip to Israel where our homeland is, Should be a better place.

    #1579700

    yytz
    Participant

    Mentsch1: My comment above was directed to the original poster (“1”), not you.

    “Did Rav Nachman actually say that it would be beneficial to leave EY to come to his kever?”

    Not specifically, but he taught in Likutei Moharan that a tzaddik’s kever “literally” has the kedushah of Eretz Yisrael. (I can find the reference for you if you want to see it inside.) For that reason, Breslov manhigim have approved traveling from EY to Uman, since it’s is in effect going from EY to EY. That doesn’t mean every Israeli should come–but certainly Breslovers should have no qualms in doing so, assuming their rabbonim and family are supportive.

    “Did he even say just come to my kever for RH?”

    Yes, absolutely. See Tzaddik #406. We don’t have a direct quote from Rebbe Nachman, but Reb Noson writes that Rebbe Nachman made clear he wanted his followers to come to Uman for RH no matter what (which they began doing the first RH after his petirah).

    #1579706

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    So just go then, if it doesnt work out, then never go again, It really isnt a big deal worth pondering so much. hashem will hear your tefillot wherever you are

    #1579733

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    For a pretty divisive issue, this thread has stayed quite calm. Maybe it’s because it’s Elul.

    I think think all the posts here give a pretty accurate representation. Let me just say one thing: when in any other scenario have you seen the following conversation take place:
    “Hey, what do you think of this shul for the Chagim?”
    “Oh, that shul? It’s not bad. There’ll be a few people talking during davening, and of course a few people shooting up heroin here and there, but other than that it’s really uplifting davening.”

    #1579747

    mentsch1
    Participant

    Neville
    If you read some of the articles online you will see that a little drugs is tame to some stuff that happens.
    I also personally know a Breslover Talmud chachum from EY who had his jaw broken in Uman two years ago bc he got involved and tried to break up a fight between two rival factions.
    I’m sure that 90% of the 40K that go don’t see these things, but I can’t imagine putting myself in a matzav were I might be exposed to something like this on RH.

    Yytz
    FAir enough
    I will grant you the point, and now understand why Breslovers would leave EY to go. But I have actually had Breslov kids come to me collecting “tzedakah” so they can go with their father to Uman. Perhaps now you understand why I’ve always turned them down.

    #1579748

    ZionGate
    Participant

    1…..
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but Uman isn’t so much the issue for
    Issue for you, as much as your disconnect with yearly
    RH davening& drasha… I’m in sympathy with you, had the same issue ,and I’ve gone to a Sephardic shul of a certain kind and I love it… Totally different nuach, piutim from R’ Yehuda Haleivi & others sung, different experiece,no drasha and am uplifted. .. You may also consider going to different
    shul…. Going to EY,of course ,,is a great uplift for me even on an ordinary weekday… Good luck

    #1579759

    1
    Participant

    ZionGate you pinned it on my head. It’s the disconnect.

    #1579758

    1
    Participant

    ZionGate ill have an easier time explaining to my family why I’d go to Uman than going to a Sephardic minyan. Though I’d love to go to a Sephardic minyan. When I was in Israel and remember the vibes I’d get from the sefardim singing their selichos.

    #1579776

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    mentsch:
    We’re on the same page. Although, I don’t know why you assume 90% of the people don’t see the bad stuff. Any time you see photos of Uman like we will here in a few weeks, the real Chasidim clearly only make up a tiny fraction of the people there.

    #1579766

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Lol… have same issue with my family but they know I like it , so it’s not a problem for me… forgot to say…. no shlepping for hours and hours, talking forbidden, tight, moves along, and I have entire day for learning, Tehillim, meditation,etc..
    Meaningful day..

    #1580303

    Rafi Bar
    Participant

    I must say I love the music video’s that are posted, especially the minute Yuntiv is over I am watching the video’s from the evening. But I would never go there unless I can go with my family. I don’t think I could gain a good experience by going there at all except I would love the music parts.

    #1580302

    Rafi Bar
    Participant

    Perhaps it is possible that you give a shiur or facillitate learning in your shule. Let’s say after Musaf or where there is a few minutes you would learn Mishnayos Rosh Hashanah together, this is just an example, the point is you would not have time to complain about the same old same old you would be too busy with actually uplifting others and yourself. I do this by being a Baal Koreh, the same concept.

    #1580357

    Haimy
    Participant

    Do you have Rebbi to discuss this with? He may be the right person to answer your question.

    #1580383

    GRATEFULBLAC
    Participant

    I went 18 times for Rosh Hashanah to Uman between 1997-2015. I stopped going a couple of years ago due to a medical problem.

    I can tell you though that if you do go you will change and experience Yiddishkeit in a new way.

    Does it ever occur to you that it is somewhat amazing that there are 60,000 Jews willing to undertake an arduous trip to the middle of the Ukraine. To leave their families, their homes, their comfort to spend a week there for Yom tov. To pay lots of money to find somewhere to stay, for the flights, the food for Yom tov, the Mikveh, a place in a shul to daven, taxis etc. Is there another gathering anywhere like it? Is there another gathering at home anything like it?

    What’s more only a small percentage of those who go come from a traditional Chassidish background (even smaller those who were born into a Breslov family). Is it not amazing that there are thousands of Yemenites who go! What possible connection could they have had to European Chassidus. Thousands more are Sephardim, Balei Teshuvah, Litvish and Yeshivish. Believe me – Kol Shiftei Yisroel.

    All these Yidden have taken the plunge and gone to Uman for Rosh Hashanah and come back again and again. WHY? You have to go there to find out!

    The Rosh Hashanah Kibbutz in Uman is the biggest rayah to Rebbe Nachman that “My Rosh Hashanah is greater than everything!”

    #1580439

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Does it ever occur to you that it is somewhat amazing that there are 60,000 Jews willing to undertake an arduous trip to the middle of the Ukraine. To leave their families, their homes, their comfort to spend a week there for Yom tov. To pay lots of money to find somewhere to stay, for the flights, the food for Yom tov, the Mikveh, a place in a shul to daven, taxis etc. Is there another gathering anywhere like it? Is there another gathering at home anything like it?

    Did it ever occur to you that some of their families don’t appreciate being abandoned for Yom Tov?

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