Good idea, bad idea, good idea

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  • #592630
    bpt
    Participant

    The original subject for this thread was going to be good idea, bad idea. Heres why:

    Good Idea!


    Then I thought:

    Bad idea.


    True, the tumult matches do not have the lasting effects that a shidduch does, but if you think about it, here are some of the things that play a part of the chavrusa process:

    1) All shares a common goal

    3) Trivial things (looks, money, yichus, ect) are not the sole reason for choosing a chavrusa

    Good idea?

    #702033
    WIY
    Member

    BP Totty,

    As you are a Totty and in dating you don’t know what’s going on out there. Most girls start dating at 18-19 and DON’T HAVE A CLUE. Many of the girls are so confused. There are probably many hundreds of girls who have dated both yeshivish learning boys and(sometimes very modern) working boys. What’s the deal? Don’t they know what they want?

    #702034
    smartcookie
    Member

    BP totty YOU ARE so funny!

    #702035
    tomim tihye
    Member

    Someone had told my husband that looking for a shidduch is like looking for a chavrusa, just with more chumros.

    #702036
    theprof1
    Participant

    Seems like they used to do that during the beis hamikdosh. on Tu B’Av. You can’t do that today with all the machmir and more machmir going on. You have any idea how this would look? Bais Yakov girls and yeshiva boys in a parking lot? Anyway the coed schools do that and it don’t work too good for them. Let’s go back to bad idea.

    #702037
    bpt
    Participant

    WIY –

    From what I see in my friends daughters, they know full well what they want and how they plan to acheive it. They are ready to date, they are ready to build a home. Perhaos not at 18-19, but surely by 20-21

    From what I see on the boys end, they haven’t a clue. So what to do, when faced with a tough call, like family building? They do what many unprepared, unmotivated people do. They procrastinate, they stall, they “still have to think about it”.

    In short, if they came to the dating arena ready to compete, they would be out of the gate in a flash. Sure, by 26 or so, they start to get it, but in the meantime, precious years slipped by. What I’m suggesting, is they be as sure of what they want in a spouse as they are about what they want in a chavrusa

    (very funny line, Tommim!)

    #702038
    SRPsych
    Member

    BP Totty: Let’s take a step back a minute. Here’s a mashal: I am looking for a dishwasher currently. How do I know what I need? I research – read about cycles, water temperature, etc…; I look at colors; I speak to my friends and go “visit” their dishwashers. An awful lot of time spent involved in dishwashers before I buy one. And that’s just for an appliance!

    A typical Yeshiva Bochur, at age 21, has no way to know “what he wants” in a girl, ‘cuz he has no opportunity to research girls. Girls are assur. Can’t look. Can’t talk to. Thinking about them is the Yetzer Hara at work. What do we expect from these kids?

    #702039
    yeshivaguy1
    Participant

    Maybe having a singles night in Lakewood every few months isn’t such a bad idea. Boys and girls in shidduchim can get together in a light atmosphere and get to know each other. Girls and guys can meet each other or set each other up with their friends. There would be a few shadchanim circulating around as well as other adults just to keep things on track. I think the opportunity to meet members of the other gender informally (and of course under “supervision”) would be very beneficial both in the amount of shidduchim that would be made and also in allowing guys and girls to get comfortable and more familiar with the opposite gender so they can fully understand what they are looking for.

    #702040
    bpt
    Participant

    SR –

    I agree. And I blame “the system” for this disconnect. The 20 year old girl is marriage ready becuase since 11th grade, she’s been CLEPing and looking towards a carrear. Boys are lulled into a deep sleep, and are not asked to wake up until way later.

    YeshivaGuy-

    You’re on the right track, . The only thing I would add is, that each single be accompanied by at least one parent, so while the singles are meeting, the parents can meet with a shadchan. With a little bit of planning, there could be certain nights for certain goals (learning on one, working on the next, willing to consider OOT on another night) and that way, less time would be wasted on miscomunication

    #702041
    RSRH
    Member

    BP Totty,

    I thought the whole point was to take away the formalities and framework of the “system.” Why the need to designate separate nights for different (artificial?) classifications? Why not let whomever is interested come all together on the same night (or day) and let them all work it out for themselves.

    I know, I know, we cant trust those little kids to actually handle things on their own in a mature manner. Perhaps not. But maybe, just maybe, they will choose to use the responsibility given to them in a responsible and sensible manner. After all, God put us here and pretty much lets us do what we want – we can choose to be good people or bad, its all in our hands. God doesn’t stand over us with lightning bolts ready to pounce if we take a wrong step. Only by giving us the responsibility and choice to be good people does our choice to do so mean anything.

    \Why not give our kids the same opportunity?

    #702042
    yeshivaguy1
    Participant

    how about changing the name of the thread to something that explains what it’s about a little better like Singles tumult or singles night out so more people will be attracted to this thread.

    somebody has got to start this. Single events shouldn’t just be for older singles and those with a different background (eg baal teshuva)

    #702043
    yeshivaguy1
    Participant

    bp totty- I never understood why the mother is always the one who communicates with the shadchan shouldn’t the singles themselves be the ones telling the shadchan what they want in life. After all they know themselves best. I’ve heard too many stories of mothers who looked for things in a daughter in law that the boy didn’t care about. Yes, there should be shadchanim around but the singles themselves should speak to them. Besides for being able to hear what they want straight from them, the shadchan will be able to size them up and get a much clearer picture of them.

    I think this idea has great potential. Now somebody has to convince the BMG roshei yeshiva to give their haskama and it will take off

    #702044
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Why is this a good idea?

    I assume we’re talking about lakewood guys. The vast majority of lakewood guys are married within a year of beginning to date. There is no problem. What are you trying to solve?

    #702045
    SRPsych
    Member

    YG1 – I think the theory underlying your post might be summed up as: “If they’re supposed to be old/mature/responsible enough to get married, than they are old/mature/responsible enough to handle their own dating process” And the inverse would be correct as well!

    And good luck with that haskama thing. (hint: sometimes, you just have to do things grassroots, and let the chips fall where they may: either you’ll get the haskama later, or you’ll be asked to disband – but if even one successful shidduch comes out of that first un-haskama-ed meeting – it will have been worth it!)

    #702046
    minyan gal
    Member

    This sounds like “speed dating” which was invented several years ago by a rabbi to address the issue of a shortage of ways for eligible Jewish people to meet one another. Naturally it was such a good idea that it has been adopted by the world at large.

    #702047
    yeshivaguy1
    Participant

    MG I didn’t really have in mind speed dating as much as just a night out where singles can get to know each other but I guess speed dating could work

    srp Basically, shidduch tumult aside, I can’t for the life of me figure out why eveerything has to go through intermediary after intermediary(his mother her mother).

    #702048
    Moq
    Member

    Practically speaking, taking into account political realities, you could probably pull this off for “older” singles (you know, girls past age two) with supervision. Pre screened, supervised, moving into standard shidduch dating – yeah, I think that would work. Maybe not in Lakewood itself -again, political realities – but it’s possible. With one parent with definetely take the sting off of it, and people may come around.

    Practically, also, an open singles night is a real bad idea, for all the reasons shidduchim were invented. But to have more openness in a modest, controlled way – the only phone number you get is the shadchan’s – sounds like, well, a good idea.

    #702049

    “A typical Yeshiva Bochur, at age 21, has no way to know “what he wants” in a girl, ‘cuz he has no opportunity to research girls. Girls are assur. Can’t look. Can’t talk to. Thinking about them is the Yetzer Hara at work. What do we expect from these kids?”

    SRPsych, then it would be the same if they weren’t yet married at 26/27, ch’v. if they don’t know at 21 and they don’t know at 22 and they don’t know at 23, cuz it’s all assur, even just to think about it, why is 26/27 any different?

    #702050

    SRPsych-

    A guy doesnt have to look at a girl, talk to a girl or think of a girl to figure out what qualities he is looking for in a wife. And if he desperately needs to see an example he can look at the qualities that he likes in his mother!

    #702051
    bpt
    Participant

    Yeshiva Guy –

    Forget about the blessing from senior managment. This needs to be a grass roots effort. The mainstream is already bogged down with too many layers, so only the loudest (and richest) get heard.

    Once people are clear about what they truly want, the layers will peel away, and the path will be smooth as glass.

    And Poppa –

    True, most Lakewood boys do get married within a year, but at what age, and to what age counterpart? And what do they plan to do once their primary source of cash (wife or parents) decide Dayeinu?

    Its time our bochurim start showing some initiative; not being content to take the passive role. Sooner or later, this becomes reality, so why hide from it?

    #702052
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    BP Totty, are you suggesting re-implementing Tu Bav?

    #702053

    Only if we have dance classes to make it fair. Just like in the time of the Bais Hamikdash.

    #702054
    bpt
    Participant

    That’s not where I was headed, but its a good idea, SJS.

    My agenda is the revival of Torah im Derech Eretz (and no, YU does not have that copyrighted, they just picked up the baton and ran away with it).

    Time for us black hatters to wake up as well.

    #702055
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    BP Totty, be careful or you’ll be branded MO! LOL

    Thinking about it, its not a bad idea for those willing. I think that certain things would need to be disclosed (mental illness etc) because that’s important. Each person should list their positive attributes and their negative ones. You can learn a lot about a person from their negative traits – more so than from positive ones.

    Its not somethign I could ever do, but it could work.

    #702056
    SRPsych
    Member

    HLM – BY 26/27 many unmarrieds are not strictly in Yeshiva anymore. Or, if they are, they have been to enough married friends houses (or out on enough dates!), to have had a bit more exposure to the forbidden species.

    Whatru – I disagree. I needed to look at dishwashers to figure out which features was really important to me in a dishwasher. And that’s just a kitchen appliance.

    #702057
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    True, most Lakewood boys do get married within a year, but at what age, and to what age counterpart? And what do they plan to do once their primary source of cash (wife or parents) decide Dayeinu?

    Which of these is a problem and also will be addressed by shidduch tumult?

    #702058
    bpt
    Participant

    Sorry, Poppa. Could you please re-phrase your question?

    #702059
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    sorry.

    I am asking which of those things is a problem, and which is a problem which will be addressed by this solution.

    Meaning- The age of the boys and girls is not a problem (unless are you in age gap theory?). The plans of support may be a problem, but I do not see how singles events will solve it.

    #702060

    BP Totty – you sound like a great father!

    #702061
    bpt
    Participant

    Poppa –

    I sort of agree that the “age gap” problem exists, but I think its because boys feel intimitaded by girls that are not 5-6 years their junior. Were the boys able to earn a living, they would feel more comfortable with girls their own age. At the same time, if for whatever reason a boy did not choose to get married at 22-23 and decided to wait till 24-25, he would feel on equal footing with a girl his own age (and not compete for the 19-20 year old, leaving the 25 y/o girl out in the cold.

    I’m really reluctant to let the phrase “singles event” go by without a ripple. The meeting I have in mind would be very much like a weekend convention, with parents and mediators (again, I’m trying to resist the word “shadchanim” as they are partially to blame for the mess we now face).

    But the biggest advantage to an “open market” would be that people would realize that despite their “chesroinos” (lack of $$$, lack of movie star looks, lack of brand name yichus), they still have loads to offer, if they exceed in other areas. And I say that because, all of a sudden, you realize that what the “market” may consider a looming black x on your ratings chart is not nearly as bleak as it looks on paper.

    If I (all 40+ years of me) were to reduce myself to an 8×11 sheet of paper, I’d look as exciting as a nursing home menu. But in the 3D world, I’m somewhat more marketable.

    The goal is to level the playing field and not be manipulated by the board masters.

    And Thanks, Pascha – I try to earn that title each and every day!

    #702062
    SRPsych
    Member

    Hey, if someone had tried to set me and my spouse up by working from a paper it never would have happened. We are complete opposites, with different personalities and interests. We weren’t even religiously EXACTLY alike at the beginning.

    16 years and counting………….. :o)

    #702063
    phrum
    Member

    So, nu? Who’s gonna get this going?

    #702064
    bpt
    Participant

    like any other grass roots movement. Its not a revoloution, it changes one shidduch at a time. If nothing else, at least the CR readers have a new idea to condsider.

    #702065
    phrum
    Member

    Too bad CR readers can’t consider the “ywn shidduchim” thread anymore.

    #702067
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I had a good idea which combined the ywn shidduchim idea with BP’s shidduch tumult idea, but it wasn’t allowed to post.

    Can you all figure it out?

    #702068
    bpt
    Participant

    Could someone post the link to the YNW shidduchim thread?

    #702070
    phrum
    Member

    Why not create a vetted, legitimate, acceptable and approved ywn shadchan whom members could approach voluntarily for appropriate shidduchim?

    #702071
    bpt
    Participant

    My vote would be for Oomis. She has the experience, and I trust her to respect the privacy of the CR members true identity.

    Mods, if you get Oomis’s go ahead, you can give her my e-mail address

    #702072
    phrum
    Member

    BP Totty

    The ywn shidduchim thread was repeatedly removed.

    #702073
    bpt
    Participant

    Hmm. So it would appear that this idea will need to be a grass roots effort after all.

    Not a problem. Grass roots efforts don’t yield instant results, but they do get people thinking and talking.

    #702074
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Mod- I’m trying again.

    BP: just put up a time and place where YWN singles will meet in Brooklyn, and you can moderate it. I must mention that I do not approve of it, though.

    (definitely posted for amusement)

    #702075
    yeshivaguy1
    Participant

    bp totty I differ with you on one critical aspect. You seem to want to involve the parents in every little thing. I envision a night where singles can get together without their parents and work things out amongst themselves of course with the help of mediators (or whatever word you prefer). Once there is a potential shidduch then parents can get involved in checking out the other side. But even there the parents will play a more limited role as the boy and girl will talk directly to the shadchan. The parent wiil end up playing more of a background role in the shidduch doing the checking and providing support and advice.

    One possible reason why shadchanim would want to sponsor such an event would be the monetary incentive. Shadchanim would be able to collect shadchanus on shidduchim that they guide to the end even though many of these shidduchim will be initiated by the boy and girl themselves or their friends. They won’t have to do all the jumping through hoops to get that first date. Maybe someone should give this sales pitch to their local shadchan

    #702076
    phrum
    Member

    Whom do we get in touch with and how? Did Oomis accept her nomination?

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