Good Riddance Mr. Haim Amsallem

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  • #607919
    sushee
    Member

    Mr. Haim Amsallem is finally on the unemployment line where he belongs, rather than fighting against Hashem and the Torah community. Disobeying his own rov, Rav Ovadia Yosef, who gave him his job as an MK and put this previously unknown character on the map, he stabbed everyone in the back with his anti-Torah positions supporting running bus service on Shabbos and forcing Bnei Torah to stop learning.

    #925454
    Yussel
    Participant

    RABBI Amsallem is a man who was telling the truth. It’s amazing to me how in certain circles, if you disagree you are making a war on HaShem and Torah. I guess there’s only ONE legitimate opinion and everybody else is evil.

    #925455

    Even if some of his message made some sense, Mr Emile Amsellem, whose smicha is valid only after shkia, is indeed a back-stabber. He did indeed try to build himself on the back of Shas, and he just kept saying whatever people wanted to hear until they realized he was as phony as a nine-shekel note.

    #925456
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    whose smicha is valid only after shkia

    I don’t get the reference. Tell us more.

    #925457

    Amsallem cost Shas a seat. This is very consequential, as now the right has only 60 seats and cannot form a coalition without the left. Whereas if Shas had one more seat the right would’ve had 61 seats and could form a coalition without the left. (And even if they accepted a left-wing party, they would’ve been in a much stronger negotiating position against giving them too much, as they would’ve realized they weren’t needed.)

    #925458
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    They should just give up and call for new elections.

    #925459
    daniela
    Participant

    True, that lowlife cost Shas a seat, however I do not think it is crucially consequential. With Shas having one more seat, UTJ would have been in the position of either taking responsibility to sabotage the option of a right-parties’ coalition and enabling the left to form a cabinet, or accepting responsibility of supporting a govt voting laws that limit exemption from draft to the illuim (while, of course, granting exemption to Arabs, xian clergy etc etc), cut support for yeshivot, limit (further) the state benefits for those who did not serve in the army, and so on. Both options are difficult. Yes of course the current option is difficult too.

    I am afraid before there will be new elections, a draft law will be voted.

    #925460
    rebdoniel
    Member

    R’ Amsalem cares dramatically about Am Yisrael. You will suffer from defaming this gadol.

    Do you have any better ideas for dealing with the problems caused by the Haredim?

    #925461
    truthsharer
    Member

    In other words, you are telling people that if they actually want to do something to improve their lives and not stay with the corrupt system, too bad??

    Shas currently leads the Knesset in number of ex-convicts.

    #925462
    Yenta
    Participant

    add amnon yitzchak into this chulent.

    wow.

    #925463

    Gadol? I deal with gedoilim of his sort with a brush and some acid cleaner when my cleaning lady is off.

    #925464

    I don’t really think Amnon Itzhak took votes from any haredi party. I think he got protest votes, the way Aleh Yarok did.

    #925465

    Mr. Amsalem cares dramatically about Mr. Amsalem – but like all self-serving demagogues he fell into the trap he set for himself. He just wasn’t very smart, so his plans fell apart after only one try.

    #925466
    bris kodesh
    Participant

    for what it’s worth – your comments are full of horrible loshon hara. your comments are (to directly quote from you): “fighting against Hashem and the Torah community” “anti-Torah” “valid only after shkia” “phony as a nine-shekel note” “self-serving” and all of the other nasty comments posted on this site (and told over verbally when you were supposed to be learning & not being mevatel Torah). please print off a copy of this CR thread & immediately show it to Rav Ovadia Yosef (or any Gadol). please make sure to point out to the Rav which comment was yours and let us know what the Rav says.

    #925467

    Did you hear what Rav Ovadia shlit”a had to say about Amsellem? My comments are quite MILD compared to his – and I stand by them 100 percent.

    He wanted to be a court Jew because he had no real position or name in Shas. There is no inyan of loshon horo against one like Mr Emile Amsellem, who I cannot call Haim as he only takes away from “ki hem chayenu.”

    I would have had a modicum of respect for him had he joined the Ein Atid list as his equally odious former buddy Lipman did.

    That being said, technically I do not think he cost Shas a seat. I think he got RZ voters who found Bayit haYehudi too nationalistic.

    #925468
    JayMatt19
    Participant

    Sad,

    Nowadays, nobody can tell the difference between who is and who isn’t a gadol

    #925469
    bris kodesh
    Participant

    If you’re so sure about your comments & about Rav Ovadia Yosef’s comments then you really should print this all off and show it to the Rav. I think you’ll be shocked by his response – just as he’ll be shocked to see what you quote him as saying.

    #925470

    Trust me, amsallem is no gadol, and i do not think that any self respecting person considers him to be one.

    At the best he is an askan, who used to listen to da’as tora, saw many problems in the chareidi communtiy, and tried to fix them.

    At worse, he is ….

    Either way, he failed to realise that change can only come from within, and forcing change, especaially on such a massive numbers, in such a crazy way, will be counter prodictive.

    #925471
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Bear: please explain the smicha reference

    #925472

    After counting the military and prison votes, Bayit Hayehudi gained a seat (and the Arabs lost a seat.) So now the right-wing has 61 seats while the left-wing has 59. So, technically, Bibi can form a coalition without Lapid with just Likud, Bayit Hayehudi, Shas and UTJ. Even, as likely, Bibi forms a more broad coalition including Lapid, it puts Lapid in a weaker negotiating position since the coalition could be formed without him.

    So, perhaps, Amsallems costing Shas a seat wasn’t as consequential as first thought.

    #925473
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I want Lapid in the govt.

    #925475
    sushee
    Member

    Oh, I almost forgot to wish another good riddance.

    Good riddance to MK Yohanan Plesner. As you may recall he was the Kadima MK that tried (and almost succeeded) to implement a forced draft of yeshivaleit with his “Plesner Plan” a few months ago.

    He was #3 on Kadima’s list, but Kadima only got 2 seats. (And barely even that, as they just squeaked past the threshold of having any seats, going from the largest party to the smallest irrelevant party.)

    #925476
    uneeq
    Member

    Popa: “Bear: please explain the smicha reference”

    He’s referring to the fact that a judge (one with smicha) can’t pasken after shkia.

    #925477
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    RD,

    R’ Amsalem cares dramatically about Am Yisrael. You will suffer from defaming this gadol.

    Do you have any better ideas for dealing with the problems caused by the Haredim?

    I find it sadly ironic that in one sentence, you complain about defaming a gadol, and in the next, defame an entire segment of klal Yisroel, including their gedolim.

    #925478
    rebdoniel
    Member

    He has a vision for creating a more sensible religious policy for Medinat Yisrael.

    Haredim on welfare, lack of education and employment in their sector is an economic strain on the Israeli taxpayer.

    Haredi control of the Rabbanut is foolish- they don’t hold by it, yet want to put the noose of stringency around the necks of an entire nation. The Rabbanut was created so that a realistic halachic standard would be applied for the sake of having an authentic and kosher religious standard on many issues. When the Rabbanut fails to meet the medina’s needs, especially in areas of marriage and conversion, change is needed. Remember that in Israel, the Rabbanut is also the marriage clerk and fills a civil role as well as a religious one in these areas.

    Amsalem’s problem was that his ideas made too much sense, and people go for handouts more than sensible solutions.

    #925479

    ” When the Rabbanut fails to meet the medina’s needs, especially in areas of marriage and conversion, change is needed. Remember that in Israel, the Rabbanut is also the marriage clerk and fills a civil role as well as a religious “

    Reread – when the halachois, [especailly kashrus, giyur, and kiddushin] fail to meet the generation’s needs, change is needed. After all har sinai was supposed to fil a role in every generation, so let’s change the toira.

    Reb doniel – do amsallem’s ideas make more sense than our eternal toira? Does he have more sense than our generation’s gedoilim?

    And never forget, it is the b’nei toira who support the governmant, not the other way round. Oimdois hoyu ragleinu – bizchus she’orayich yerushalayim. (or does that also not meet today’s demands.)

    #925480
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Haredim on welfare, lack of education and employment in their sector is an economic strain on the Israeli taxpayer.

    That would be eased a great deal if they were allowed to work.

    From his website:

    He…believes that nothing short of a revolution in the rabbinate will restore the authentic Jewish approach of loving one another

    Sorry, you can’t expect to accuse charedim of lacking in ahavas Yisrael and be treated with respect.

    #925481
    rebdoniel
    Member

    The approach he takes on giyur is not out of line with what the Rambam, Rav Uziel, and other gedolim paskened on the matter.

    As far as marriage, there is no halakhic requirement for people’s Jewishness to be mercilessly scrutinized and investigated, to the point where people are driven away from kedushas yisroel and straight into Cyprus.

    #925482
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sure, if you don’t care about marrying someone who’s Jewish.

    #925483
    midwesterner
    Participant

    I don’t think anyone really answered Popa’s question properly. The smicha after shkia comes from a silly pun. Smicha=blanket. The only smicha he has is on his bed. Ho ho!! Or as Popa would say, He he!!

    #925484
    rebdoniel
    Member

    And, his Sefer Zera Yisrael has haskamos from R’ Ovadia Yosef, R’ Meir Mazuz (a huge gaon and gadol, who has also even suggested that the issur against medication on shabbat should no longer apply), R’ Nachum Rabinovitch, R’ Yaakov Ariel, R’ Shear Yashuv Cohen, R’ Dov Lior, and others.

    #925485
    ari-free
    Participant

    rebdoniel: didn’t Naomi send Orpah straight back to Moav?

    #925486
    rebdoniel
    Member

    These people aren’t stam goyim; they’re members of Israeli society through no fault of their own,

    #925487
    shmoolik 1
    Participant

    Many of those who marry in Cyprus are halachikly Jewish but cannot cope with the treatment they get from the rabbanut.

    Those who are not jewish and are of zerah yisroel ( jewish fathers)they are the ones he wants to help and be lienient towards.

    #925488
    avhaben
    Participant

    The chareidi rabbonim warned the Israeli government not to bring over the Russian goyim BEFORE they did it. So, yes, it certainly is their fault. They should never have brought those gentiles into EY.

    #925489
    rebdoniel
    Member

    Do you have any reason why zera yisrael shouldn’t be helped and brought close?

    #925491

    Having lived in Russia and Ukraine, I know just how important it is to inspect all records and to reject insincere gerim.

    A gerus for marriage is invalid, period. I saw with my own eyes how one Vashti in the guise of Ruth bought treyf food with her husband every time I saw her in the supermarket. They returned to the US, and they send their kids to a non-frum kindergarten. Tell me, please, what that gerus is worth.

    She was the best of the bunch – other stories are not fit for this audience. Even non-religious Jews I knew would not do that in front of me, because they respect those who keep Yiddishkeit.

    That being said, there is no reason we should respect the religious authority of the medine in any way, and it really can only decide “who is an Israeli citizen.” We must keep our own sifrei yochsin, and in one generation we will need them even to know who can get an aliya in shul (believe me, the non-kosher gerim will show up either to make trouble or for the Kiddush).

    #925492
    rebdoniel
    Member

    If a person says they’re Jewish, they’re believed, for the purpose of aliya l’torah, etc.

    Rambam says we only investigate for the sake of chupah v’kiddushin.

    Your ideas sound draconian, There are also many cases where people are observant but they’re rejected because the converting rabbis are politically incorrect- for instance, R’ Karelitz’s converts in Israel are not accepted and cannot attain citizenship.

    #925493
    Naysberg
    Member

    HaRav Karelitz’s geirim are generally uninterested in obtaining Israeli citizenship.

    #925494
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Rd,

    They are believed to be truthful, but if we know that the geirus is questionable halachically, that doesn’t help.

    #925495
    rebdoniel
    Member

    The issue is whether non-observance nullifies a conversion, and I have never seen a reasonable halakhic case made that a conversion can be annulled. A person who has brit milah and tevilah and verbally expresses their understanding of what is required of them is Jewish, period. This is how poskim have historically understood the matter, and the mishegoss I’ve seen in recent years is damaging and without any halakhic basis.

    This is something to either laugh or cry about- a ger was converted by a former RCA president and leader in the Modern Orthodox community. The RCA itself doesn’t endorse it, and the ger went to a Chassidishe beis din in Boro Park (Biala, Satmar, and others) who accepted him without a problem and welcomed him into the Lvover shteible without issue.

    #925496
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If you are an american and want to get married in Israel, you have to prove you are jewish which for most is almost impossible especially those who ancestors came to the US before World War I

    #925497
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Rd,

    Nobody ever annulled a conversion. Conversions were declared passul, from their outset. Kabbolas mitzvos is part of geirus. If someone didn’t accept to keep the Torah, milah and tevilah become empty acts.

    #925498
    rebdoniel
    Member

    You cannot prove intention. Rabbis or anyone for that matter cannot read minds. Mind-reading is not part of Torah.

    Rambam paskens that if beis din fails to tell the ger about mitzvot and their schar v’ onesh, the conversion is still valid (Issurei Biah 13:17) and the Magid Mishneh says that such a law for informing the convert about the mitzvot is simply not me’akev.

    #925499
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You cannot prove intention. Rabbis or anyone for that matter cannot read minds. Mind-reading is not part of Torah.

    Then why were the conversions of the Kusim questioned by Chaza”l? Do you think the mikvaos were questionable?

    #925501
    midwesterner
    Participant

    My daughter got married in Israel this past summer. My family, and my wife’s family have been here since the early 20th century. My mechuten and his wife are children of Holocaust survivors. Neither of us was challenged in any way.

    #925502
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    My friends had problems, There is some Rabbi (I forgot his name) who helps american jews “prove” their jewishness.

    #925503
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I would guess that the Rabbanut is suspicious in some cases but not in others.

    #925504
    Naysberg
    Member

    That’s only necessary if there is a reason for doubt. (Like Reform marriages in the mix.)

    #925505
    rebdoniel
    Member

    Rabbi Seth Farber is a true ally of gerim who helps with these issues.

    He should have the support of anyone who believes in ahavat hager.

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