October 10, 2023 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #2230540hujuParticipant
It is typical for a goverment and its leader to resign, voluntarily or involuntarily, when a horrible attack occurs on that government’s watch. Bibi Netanyahu has given no sign of leaving his post. It is time for Israeli voters to address the question of who should Israel’s prime minister starting today.
I will start off the discussion: he must be replaced ASAP. Just to be clear, I am not a resident of Israel or eligible to vote there.October 10, 2023 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #2230570GadolhadorahParticipant
The intelligence failures and lack of high level government focus on an obvious threat is beyond understanding and demands answers once the immediate crisis has been mitigated to some degree. edited – Sorry, not doing this. Unless you want to go stand in his shoes right now, that can waitOctober 10, 2023 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #2230571akupermaParticipant
Perhaps yes, perhaps no. Golda Meir was politically much closer to her generals in 1973, so it was harder for her to escape the blame. If the Israeli voters perceive the leadership of the military, and especially the intelligence service as allied with Bibi, he is out after the war ends (and remember that most of the current opposition consists of Likudniks who can’t stand Bibi, whereas most of Golda’s oppositions were anti-socialists who rejected her entire agenda rather than just her). If the public perceives the military elite as allied with the economic elites whose demonstrations crippled the government and may have encouraged Hamas to think Israel was “easy pickings”, the reverse is true, and Bibi’s replacement will probably be an ultra-nationalist who can say “I told you so” when pointing to past left wing policies (such as Oslo, withdrawal from Gaza, etc.).October 10, 2023 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #2230572yeshivaguy45Participant
huju, I do not get involved in Israeli politics but from what I know, it is NOT typical to resign at a time of crisis. At that time, the country needs a leader.October 10, 2023 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #2230581shmendrik24Participant
@huju who are you suggesting lead the country. Lapid? the same Lapid who has been leading the secularist in their demonstrations? This was a failure on an international scale. America has said they had no inkling. You’re insane if you think there is anyone else that can lead them now. The extreme right can’t win. No one from Likud is ready to lead. So if not Bibi, you get liberal left.October 10, 2023 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #2230595ujmParticipant
Elections are not for another three years. You’ll get your day in the voting booth in 2026.
Until then the Israeli voters have spoken and democracy prevails.October 10, 2023 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #2230597
this is not a random attack, events are continuing, and it is time to all work together, especially when a leader has experience, whether you agree with that experience or not. There will be commissions after to learn the lessons.October 10, 2023 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #2230598
There is a video of an Israeli soldier going around, saying that we have left fighting right, right fighting left, forgetting that we have real enemies. Understandably, most of us are less connected to the situation as this soldier, but these ideas should propagate.October 10, 2023 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #2230599commonsaychelParticipant
@huju: “Just to be clear, I am not a resident of Israel or eligible to vote there.”
good then it none of ur biz.
discussion overOctober 11, 2023 1:51 am at 1:51 am #2230617☕️coffee addictParticipant
IyH bibi will step down and hand the reigns over to משיח בן דודOctober 11, 2023 1:51 am at 1:51 am #2230619HaimyParticipant
That would be the best present for Hamas! Now is a time for tefilah & teshuva, not political comparisons.
If you are a maamin & believes this was a gezeirah min hashomayim meant for us to wake up, then it makes no difference who was the PM at the time. Get the message & start davening!October 11, 2023 1:51 am at 1:51 am #2230660Menachem ShmeiParticipant
Resigning in a time of war would be a cowardly and dangerous move.
Let’s wait till the dust settles to start pointing fingers.October 11, 2023 1:51 am at 1:51 am #2230665DontMindMeParticipant
It’s natural to compare this to the Yom Kippur war, but it’s really not comparable. In the leadup to that war both the defense establishment and Golda Meir ignored obvious warnings and signs that pointed to a coming war. Golda Meir chose not to approve a preemptive strike which some in the defense establishment were recommending, because she was afraid of world opinion.
In this case, this wasn’t Bibi chosing to ignore an obvious threat. Of course, the Prime Minister is ultimately responsible for whatever happens under his watch; however this was a failure by the intelligence community above all.October 11, 2023 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #2230752YusselParticipant
Perhaps now is not the time but once things have settled down he should resign. With great power comes great responsibility. He is the man at the top and he is the man who has billed himself as “Mr. Security”. He must accept the blame and resign. it’s the honorable thing to doOctober 11, 2023 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #2230876ubiquitinParticipant
“It is typical for a goverment and its leader to resign, voluntarily or involuntarily, when a horrible attack occurs on that government’s watch. … he must be replaced ASAP. Just to be clear, I am not a resident of Israel or eligible to vote there.”
That is not typical at all. In fact it sounds crazy reckless and dangerous
AFTER things quiet down and appropriate investigations are launched then if in fact blame lies with him and government (and very well might ) then he should resign.
It is nuts to suggest he resign now
Yom Kippur war occurred in October 1973 . Golda MEir did not resign until April 74October 11, 2023 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #2230889Chaim87Participant
Meir didn’t step down till after the war. First we need to fight the war in a united fashion with no blame. After that Yes i think Bibi must go and we need to return to electing strong generals who understand security issues. Not Bennet or Lapid
Re as to why blame Bibi? Well there were 3 main failures here.
1) A lack of intelligence picking up Hamas planning. How did we miss that.
2) The fact that the security for Gaza was all based on technology albeit high tech, but that can easily be wiped out in one air strike.
3) The fact that after the breach it took us hours to mobilize in the the modern day 2023 era. Israel needs to be able to mobilize alot quicker and that has always been a strength.
If I had to quantify this, Id say #1 isn’t so much Bibi’s fault as Hamas unfortunately did a good job concealing all this and fooling us that they are “peaceful”. But #2 is a huge issue. Bibi has been around of 15 years more or less (aside for a brief loss here and there.) That border wall was built under his watch and he put time in that. What was he thinking? And then #3 is also Bibi fault since its his army that needs to be better prepared to respond.
I love Bibi policies and I am not a leftie. I’d never want lapid. EditOctober 11, 2023 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #2230991hujuParticipant
ujm: you could not be wronger. A no-confidence vote or aresignation by Bibi would be just two of the events that would trigger an election . And as I said, I am not eligible to vote in Israel.October 11, 2023 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #2231010October 11, 2023 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #2231036smerelParticipant
May I remind you and everyone here of YOUR assessment of the issue here on YWN. I haven’t forgotten it becuase as I said then and repeat now it is from the most vile and antisemitic comments I ever seen on the blog world. And I’ve seen many vile and antisemitic comments on the blogworld
Here is your “brilliant” assessment
>>>Indefensible borders from who? Lebanon, Syria, Jordan & Egypt have neither the will nor capability to go to war with Israel. The Gulf States have no interest in war with Israel. The Palestinians with some automatic rifles & crude rockets are a non threat. The only threat is Iran 1,100 miles away giving Israel plenty of time to react before they get near Israel (& truth be told Iran really has no interest in a war with Israel.)
This is what bothers people about Israel (& Jews). Israel is the undeniable Superpower in the region where this time instead of a 6 day war it’d be max a 3 day war with a total victory for Israel. Yet we’re crying to the world like Israel is on the verge of being destroyed & people resent that.October 11, 2023 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #2231026
Similarity to 1973 is that in both cases government was in the hands of experienced people with previous record of success. Maybe, we should appreciate that when we have a win, it is often a nes and not our zechuyos, and we should not rely on a stam repeat without any additional effort. Or, according to the gemora theory that nes eats up zechuyos, then there may be less left for the second case …
A systemic explanation that I hear from some analysts that it is derech olam that achieving sholom with a bad entity through strength leads to inevitable “peace dividend” that politicians milk to get popularity – redirect expenses, fight against or for windmills, and they shape military leadership that is not too aggressive, and, to top that, you get wishful thinking interpreting enemy behavior l’tzad zechus (interesting how halakha leads us here to the right result – no tzad zechus to reshayim).October 11, 2023 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #2231028
Chaim, agree with your list, add to that
4) interpreting enemy exercises near the wall as political events, given that there were peaceful gestures at the moment
Whether there is Bibi’s fault is not very important. If he were a untested leader, this would be a determining event. Given that he is an experienced leader, the question might be – did he lose his abilities due to age, changed environment, too much politics, etc. If not, then he might still be the best person to fix things going forward. And as we know from the story of Rabban Gamliel, dismissing a distinguished leader is not that simple, even when he is not always right. I mean here people who appreciate his service, those who disagree with him are in their right to vote for someone else, of course.October 11, 2023 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #2231030
Also, please note that however tragic the events are now, Israel still has functioning military and intelligence. Nobody is expected to be always successful in a war.
We should appreciate how much internal fights affect leadership. When a country is running elections for several years, prime minister is under several trials, reservists threaten not to show up for service, etc, this surely affect how government is functioning.October 11, 2023 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #2231032ujmParticipant
huju: I could not be not right. Mr. Netanyahu has been elected more times by the Israeli electorate as Prime Minister than any other person in Israeli history. And Mr. Netanyahu has demonstrated strongly and repeatedly that he does not and will not resign under fire. His enemies have been trying to shove him out of scene as long as he’s been in it. They keep failing miserably.October 12, 2023 12:32 am at 12:32 am #2231067nussanParticipant
PM called for Olmert to step down for less back then. Yet PM after his own indictment refused to step down .October 12, 2023 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #2231205Abba_SParticipant
I doubt Bibi is going to be blamed since unlike previous PM the army and the intelligence were calling for his resignation. Also having a unity government lets him blame his opponents if the war goes bad.October 12, 2023 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #2231193Chaim87Participant
You raise a good point re #4 but I divide the argument really into two pieces.
1) Judgment calls which are very hard to make and often the other side can fool you. Like Hamas is now peaceful or that this threat sound no different than the rest etc. or that exercise son the border are their classic games.
2) Planning in advance so that we are prepped if an event occurs. Its under this category where you need to blame senior leaders. There is no excuse no to plan a defense for the worse.
editedOctober 12, 2023 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #2231311YW Moderator-29 👨💻Moderator
Rabbi Wallerstein zt”l had beautiful words on how our first cheit was lack of gratitude, being kafui tov, and how we need to work hard on this mida/mitzva in order to bring moshiach. While most of you are pontificating about all of the IDF mistakes, (using the volumes of data, knowledge and evidence you must have received from the front considering the confidence in which you post) they themselves stand face to face with barbaric pseudo humans, responsible for figuring out how to keep a country of people alive and well. Perhaps we can stretch ourselves waaaaaaaaay beyond our comfort zones and think of something positive to say about the people who are presently responsible, as Hashem’s shlichim, for the physical aspect of the war. Or just acknowledge the huge responsibility they presently have. Or just actively refrain from spreading negativity and criticism based on nothing at all but ignorance and speculation. Humility goes a long way in making you a better person. Hakaras Hatov is an obligation. Learning to hold your tongue can give life. They haven’t even finished IDing the bodies yet, maybe give it a week.
<rant tabled>October 13, 2023 1:21 am at 1:21 am #2231481
I don’t know what was edited out, but overall we seem to be discussing what happened rather than blaming, and Chaim’s points are informed. There is a lot of data in public domain right now to have a reasonable discussion. You can’t stop people from trying to comprehend the tragedy and it is better to have an informed discussion here, under your watchful moderation, than listen to inane rumors. What is true is that official inquiry will have to wait.
“I don’t know what was edited out…” ExactlyOctober 13, 2023 1:49 am at 1:49 am #2231484
Presumably at the higher levels they were told that the high-tech wall is doing the job. They also felt smart that were listening to hamas conversations, confirming their views. So, they leveraged resources for other priorities, including other threats, that they considered more important.
Could the prime minister also personally walk along the perimeter and review all technical info about new uavs and mine field making? Maybe, but I am afraid there were 100 crazy things happening in Israel that he had to pay attention to. That is where the whole society is at fault for messing up priorities.
So, Israeli government is capable of quickly correcting for the errors and increased cabinet surely has expertise and variety of opinions. Harder to know what wad going on in the peacetime army. If some inferior leaders were appointed over time, IF, it may be challenging to change them in days.
The same wishful thinking of peace dividends happened in other places.. that is why US and EU are scrambling for munitions, Ukraine is going back for months in places they lost in a week.October 13, 2023 9:28 am at 9:28 am #2231506lakewhutParticipant
Would you say goodbye to FDR after pearl harbor?
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