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  • #1306652

    Health
    Participant

    Is it permitted to lie or bend the truth?

    #1307144

    Avi K
    Participant

    No. Rav Moshe has a teshuva about which I do not have time right now to find. He also forbade cheating on the Regents ((HM II:30).

    #1307155

    anuran
    Participant

    Is it permissible in general to lie to get something you aren’t entitled to?
    Is it permissible to break the laws of the country you live in for personal gain?
    Is it permissible to steal?

    #1307159

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Why should the fact the programs are government sponsored and not private make a difference.
    Lying is lying.
    Many forms have notices of the penalties for false statements printed on the form.

    #1307187

    catch yourself
    Participant

    It against the Halacha to lie or bend the truth, even without monetary gain. It is against the Halacha to accept any form of monetary benefit to which you are not entitled.

    #1307224

    Health
    Participant

    Actually the reason I started this topic is because I really don’t blame the guys & gals that were arrested!
    I do think it’s wrong to break the law. I live in Lakewood, but the cost of living here is outrageous!
    I personally am within the law, but the government put me in jail for a day because of child support.
    I’m still fighting in court about the child support and this is going on for years!

    #1307234

    Meno
    Participant

    I live in Lakewood, but the cost of living here is outrageous!

    You should come to New York

    #1307237

    Joseph
    Participant

    Health, where is the cost of living for a kosher yeshiva sending (for seven children) consumer less expensive than Lakewood?

    #1307295

    Health
    Participant

    Joe -“Health, where is the cost of living for a kosher yeshiva sending (for seven children) consumer less expensive than Lakewood?”

    EY, where there’s No tuition costs!
    Anywhere there’s legal tuition from the government and there are a lot of places.

    #1307306

    jakob
    Participant

    lakewood is alreaDy cheapest then any out of town community. not just for education but also to make a large affordable wedding for your daughter & get it for a package price everything. but now lakewood has become a big city & is not simple like it used to be 20 years ago, when the entire town was around BMG & the community was solely based on torah. today lakewood has become a fancy business city with many out of towners moving in for work (& not just cause they want to learn in BMG)

    #1307420

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I heard it straight from Rav Pinchas Schienberg zt”l himself. In reference to the unlicensed playgroups and businesses “There is NO heter for breaking the law!”

    I got the impression from the way this thread was going and the article on the newspage that we were talking about people who couldn’t make ends meet underreporting their income to get funds and programs they had trouble doing without. While I still see that to be lying and illegal, that seems to be a misrepresentation of what the case is really about.

    #1307449

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    SY

    If it was just $10,000 maybe you would have a point, but they are talkign 6 figures. $10,000 is needed just to survive, Six figures is a sign they were for the money

    #1307458

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    While I still see that to be lying and illegal, that seems to be a misrepresentation of what the case is really about.

    I don’t know about all, but at least one family struggles to make ends meet (is in fact in debt). It wouldn’t surprise me if they’re exonerated.

    #1307464

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    ZD – I am not exactly sure what you are saying. If I understand you correctly, you are saying they stole millions, not just 10,000.
    Two responses: The six figure amount was the total of several years of monthly stipends plus insurance. that can add up to a ton even if its only a small amount a month.

    second: that isn’t what the arrest was about.

    #1307465

    Avi K
    Participant

    Health, are you serious? They were raking in millions through straw owners of businesses.

    DY, in debt? They made a million but spent $2 million? I wouldn’t be surprised if money laundering and tax evasion charges are added because of the money funneled from the businesses.

    #1307474

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY, in debt? They made a million but spent $2 million?

    Nothing close to that. A simple kollel family not involved in any such numbers or shenanigans. There may be a bigger investigation going on in which innocent, or at least less guilty, people are getting caught up in.

    #1307481

    Joseph
    Participant

    The benefits each family received was several hundred dollars a month in food stamps, Medicaid coverage and some received a monthly rent stipend from Section 8. It wasn’t extremely huge amount of benefits. The media reports of each getting benefits totaling a couple hundred thousand dollars per family was cumulative over a six year period, ’09-’14.

    The public reports do not indicate how much income each accused allegedly earned per year, except for one or two families out of the six charged. So I don’t see how anyone can say they weren’t truly needy trying to make ends meet, if you don’t know what they earned.

    And that’s even before getting to the issue of the fact that there’s no right to believe the allegations they earned off the books money, despite that being alleged.

    #1307527

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    SY

    One Million is 7 figures, not 6 figures.

    The number floating around is about $300,000-$400,000

    #1307528

    Health
    Participant

    Avi K -“Health, are you serious? They were raking in millions through straw owners of businesses.”

    IDK the particulars in this case; but the fact is a lot of people that live here end up doing something illegal!
    You can’t live with the Kollel checks and have a high cost of living.
    Anyone who says you can is because they are not faced with the same situations!

    #1307533

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    ZD – that really has nothing to do with the point. Did you understand what I was saying?

    #1307517

    Joseph
    Participant

    BTW, the Vaad statement was completely out of line. 1) Don’t make your educational courses on the backs of potentially innocents falsely accused; make your courses but don’t associate the announcement or timing with these charges. 2) Don’t incorrectly announce that Jews are permitted to accept or believe the judgements of the non-Torah court system that uses far lower thresholds of evidence than the Torah permits in accusations to be proven.

    #1307537

    adlc
    Participant

    They may have been needy.. but I find it hard to believe that the government is going to take that much into account. Ultimately, if your debt comes from a lifestyle choice (i.e., frum schools, comfortable-sized house, living in Lakewood rather than Cleveland or Detroit etc…), there isn’t going to be a whole lot of sympathy from the criminal justice system. Welfare fraud is welfare fraud is welfare fraud, as far as they are concerned – and btw, even if the numbers were cumulative, they are still large.

    #1307539

    Health
    Participant

    Joe -“BTW, the Vaad statement was completely out of line.”

    I agree with your line!
    They aren’t focusing on the real problem.
    I wrote this a short while ago:
    “You can’t live with the Kollel checks and have a high cost of living.”

    #1307540

    adlc
    Participant

    to Joseph:

    The criminal justice system does not use significantly lower thresholds of evidence. The evidentiary standard for any criminal offense is “beyond a reasonable doubt.” And we are not talking here about neemanus of ladies or single witnesses; this is about documents that prove income and documents that prove welfare applications. Criminal intent is not an element of the offense here, so it doesn’t matter if the accused knew that what they were doing was illegal. , The crime is simply whenever someone:
    1. Made “x” amount of money per year, and
    2. Was on welfare because said that income was “y”

    Of course, they may have evidence to defend themselves; that is what a court proceeding will determine. But it is awfully silly to think that the gov’t would waste their time ad money going after people that they don’t have a good chance of convicting.

    #1307542

    Joseph
    Participant

    1. Frum schooling is a must, not an option.

    2. Larger housing is necessary when you have two parents and seven children versus a single parent, 2.1 children and a dog.

    3. Cleveland and Detroit are not less expensive for kosher living with 7 tuitions.

    Note: This comment of mine has nothing to do with the charges or underlying events.

    #1307546

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    1. Yes, it is an option in regard to free choice and secular standards
    3. not true at all

    #1307549

    Joseph
    Participant

    The threshold of evidence required to prove is most certainly far far higher in the Torah system than in the secular system. Many many, probably most, convictions obtained in American courts would not have met the Torah’s evidentiary requirements for conviction in a Din Torah.

    #1307555

    adlc
    Participant

    Perhaps you can explain why they don’t meet that standard then? (Unless you are counting the fact that pleading guilty doesn’t go very far in a din torah).

    #1307556

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I am a firm beliver in Jews should be Ohr Lagoyim and that means not even the smell of wrong doing,

    If you want to be on a higher level, than be on a higher level.

    Just all at all the threads about Tzniut, Kashrut etc. Would anyone eat someone that might be Iffy Kashruth?

    #1307560

    Joseph
    Participant

    Syag, how much would 7 K-12 Yeshiva tuitions cost in Cleveland and Detroit? How does the cost there of kosher food, kosher clothing and other Jewish items needed for living compare to Lakewood?

    #1307564

    Joseph
    Participant

    The accusation of him having earned “X” dollars in another persons name might be “proven” via (false) single witness testimony that he was the underlying owner/earner, rather than whoever’s name was on the documents.

    #1307566

    adlc
    Participant

    True enough

    #1307563

    adlc
    Participant

    From what I’ve heard, tuition in Cleveland is now actually free depending on income (of course this is the same slippery slope…..). And housing in both can easily be under 200K. Clothing and food are always a matter of where you shop.

    #1307562

    Joseph
    Participant

    adlc, to take an example (just one easy one from many many examples), in secular courts the prosecutor can get a conviction by “proving” the accused earned “X” dollars per year based on the testimony of a single “witness” who pled guilty to another crime/case and worked out a prosecutorial agreement for a lesser sentence in exchange for testifying against the accused in another case. If he doesn’t have anyone else to testify a crime against, he doesn’t get a lesser sentence. It is in his interest to “find” crimes he “knows” about and can offer to testify against so that the prosecutor is made happy to advance his career and public perception for fighting crime. Very often such witnesses testify falsely for that lesser sentence.

    In a criminal Din Torah case such a “witness” would be disqualified for multiple reasons. Some of those reasons are a) he’s a single witness b) if it’s a she that alone disqualifies c) he’s a convicted criminal, which alone disqualifies him from being a witness.

    #1307582

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Just because it might not be against Halacha to take this money, doesnt mean its legal

    Where is the Asifa against stealing? How about renting the Barclays Center for such an event

    #1307585

    Joseph
    Participant

    ZD, I’d like to organize that parlor meeting/asifa in your home and invite the neighborhood.

    Are we on?

    #1307593

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    My Studio apartment isnt big enough. We need the Barclays center. Lets make a Kiddish hashem and you are voulenteering to drive everyone to go ..Right?

    #1307609

    Joseph
    Participant

    Okay, ZD, rent the Barclays Center and I’ll arrange rides for everyone to get there.

    #1307597

    Nechomah
    Participant

    Health, don’t kid yourself, tuition in EY is not FREE!!!

    For BY schools, you can send your girls for free, but most boys’ chadorim that I know of cost $. Not like prices in America, I’m sure, but salaries in EY are no where near what they are in America either. I pay around $150 a month for a boy in last year of grade school and they ask for $300 for boys in high school (no dorm), which includes 3 meals (not the most nutritious and definitely not the most appetizing).

    My girls are in private school and I pay about $100 per girl per month. I’m not sure what the chassidishe schools charge or if that is subsidized by the chassidus.

    #1307630

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    ZD – a studio? Where does Zahava sleep?

    #1307628

    Joseph
    Participant

    Nechomah, what are examples of what salaries are like in EY?

    #1307671

    Joseph
    Participant

    Zahava sleeps on a cot on the kitchen floor.

    Not everyone is blessed with extra discretionary funds, Syag. 😀

    #1307674

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, your one witness example is bogus. That witness cant just say shgloime had more income. . He has to have documentation to prove shloime has more income. In addition, you apparently had no problem believing all of the Ivana allegations

    #1307804

    Nechomah
    Participant

    Minimum wage is running around 7.50/hour, what with the current shekel/dollar rate. That is what a lot of secretarial positions pay. I have no idea what teachers get paid. Most kollel families have one working spouse who works anywhere from 5 to 8 hours a day and kollelim here are harder and harder to get into.

    #1308117

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, mishpat hamelech can be at whatever standard the authorities deem proper. See Ran in Derasha 11 regarding the obvious practical reasons. The philosophical reason, as I understand it, is that the bet din’s job is to enable the criminal to atone whereas the secular authorities’ job is to maintain public order.

    There is no justification for stealing! There should not only be glatt kosher but glatt yosher!

    #1308180

    yehudayona
    Participant

    ZD wrote “Would anyone eat someone that might be Iffy Kashruth?” I don’t think there are any cannibals in the CR.

    #1308275

    Mammele
    Participant

    As I stated on the Ivanka rumor thread, there are asifas on educating the community on how to live life legally.

    The main comment I got on that line was about the correct spelling of “business” (thanks to everyone for sticking up for me). BUT IT WAS A SIMPLE COPY PASTE, which I erroneously thought was obvious.

    Google will verify it – and you’ll get to see some photos related to the event.

    (Sorry, I got busy/lazy to follow through with an answer on all of Avi K’s points. And it kind of seemed pointless to argue with him).

    I’m reposting this so you don’t have to go thread hopping. (And by the way, I’m really proud of the very few spelling mistakes I’ve made in the coffee room.)

    Dror Free @DrorFreeOrg
    ·
    Jun 22

    TONIGHT DINA EVENT:
    educating our community on legal and buissness topics. in Williamsburg
    The continental 75 Rutledge st

    #1308287

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    TONIGHT DINA EVENT:
    educating our community on legal and buissness topics. in Williamsburg
    The continental 75 Rutledge st

    Learn to use spell check.

    😉

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