October 29, 2009 12:07 pm at 12:07 pm #667259
Why do many people only go to chupah, and not get a civil marriage? Is this in order to qualify as a single mother for some programs? And if yes, don’t they have to declare that the father of the children don’t live with them, etc.?October 29, 2009 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #667260
anon for thisParticipant
pg, I’ve heard of elderly people marrying under the chuppah without a civil marriage, in order to keep receiving a deceased spouse’s social security benefits. Obviously that’s fraud & happens rarely. I’ve never heard of younger people doing that though.October 29, 2009 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #667261
anon for this (or anyone),
Why would marrying under the chuppa but not civilly for whatever financial benefit it entails, be any more or less fraudulent than 2 non-Jew’s living together essentially as husband and wife (ofttimes even having children), but not marrying (and enjoying same financial benefits as such)?
I see no difference.October 29, 2009 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #667262
two people living together don’t get the same benefits as a husband and wife, certainly not federal benefits.
No “real” misader kiddushin will do a wedding unless the civil marriage is taken care of.October 29, 2009 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #667263
The military looks 15 to 50 years ahead. They are already planning weapons systems for the mid – century!!!
The military can not correct the damage to would be solders who were malnurished early in life on in utero.October 29, 2009 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #667264
Jothar, I didn’t say it was illegal, just IMHO immoral. Its wrong to put yourself in a situation where you will be supported by others when it isn’t necessary. People can do whatever they want.
Truthsharer, I didn’t get married legally at our chupah. We were going to Vegas and wanted to get married there. We didn’t apply for any benefits though.October 29, 2009 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #667265
I don’t want to sound ornery, but at the same time, wanted to give you some food for thought:
In another thread, you noted that you would like to redo your kitchen with more expensive materials, in order that it should last for 40 years. You also noted that you know you will need to ask for a tuition break.
Now, I’m no judge or morality, and have no moral wisdom whatsoever to tell you if this is or isn’t appropriate. However, of course you know that those who pay full tuition, plus are asked to contribute more and more over the year, are filling in for those who need to ask for breaks. I people who are asked by their children’s schools for extra contributions over and over, because the schools are in desperate need. They are happy to help, and consider it tzedaka. However, it is actually tzedaka that is needed because the school giving you a break because you can’t afford the full amount of tuition. Are YOU putting yourself in a situation where you would like a “better” kitchen, to need to “accept” a break, which actually takes money out of others’ pockets to close the gap created by breaks?
I am making no judgment at all- simply pointing out that your finger-pointing at what you judge “immoral” may not be appropriate in light of the things YOU do. Perhaps what you are doing is ok, perhaps what they are doing is ok. Perhaps none of you are moral, perhaps only one of you are moral. Who knows. But perhaps it’s better not to point the “moral” finger, when it is so easy to find morally questionable “doings” in the finger-pointer.
Please don’t take offense, just meant as food for thought.October 29, 2009 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #667266
You missed the point.
My point was that a frum couple who went to the chuppa without a civil marriage are certainly doing no worse than a secular couple living together with children, that never bothered to get married.
BTW My mesader, a Godol Yisroel (who sits on the Moetzes) never asked me if I got a civil marriage. (I did, as it happened to be.) It is mostly a non-issue to a “real” mesader, including the Gedolim.October 30, 2009 12:07 am at 12:07 am #667267
Bemused, I understand and I agree. I wouldn’t redo my kitchen at all except there are nails sticking out. The nails are old and rusty. Its not SAFE. I’m not talking about upgrading my kitchen because I want it to be beautiful. And I don’t think it makes sense to use materials that will last ten years because in the long run it will cost me much more in labor (labor is basically the same, but I would have to redo the kitchen a few times in the 40 years), so its just the material costs. In the long run, I will be able to pay more in tuition than if I did it with cheap materials.
Honestly, I will probably ask my family for help before turning to the tuition board. And I am going to do everything I can to avoid needing a tuition break. We are already saving money for tuition. We scrimp on almost everything to save as much as we can.
I am also looking to bus my children to a cheaper area for school. There is a school about 45 minutes away that with transportation will cost around $8,000 instead of $15,000. I am strongly considering that so I can pay in full, even though the education is not as great and my kids will have to spend 1.5 hours a day on the bus instead of 30 minutes.
I am also considering getting a part time job to supplement if I can. I don’t know when or where, since I work about 50 hours a week and need time to take care of my family, but I don’t want to be a burden.
Trust me, this isn’t something I take lightly. My mother thinks I worry too much about it.October 30, 2009 4:55 am at 4:55 am #667268
You do sound like you’ve put a lot of thought into it. I only brought up your situation because I don’t like to see good people get “finger-pointed” at as immoral when they might possibly be doing the right thing for them.
I give you a bracha that you should have enough parnassa to send many children to school without taking on another job!October 30, 2009 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #667269
hmmm according 2 sammygol, i should really know abt section 8.November 9, 2009 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #667270
just somw food for thought. i was filling out an application for medicaid- publicaid and i found something for you to really get heated up about. You are able to recieve medicaid and foodstamps even if you are NOT A U.S. CITIZEN. now that is called stealing tax money according to me. Illegals and aliens WITHOUT proper documents can still get help from the american tax money!!! Much more disturbing then Americans applying for these programs.November 9, 2009 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #667271
neatfreak- how is a non-u.s. citizen receiving benefits any more stealing than a u.s. citizen getting food and medical insurance that other people pay for. I’m not saying that I think non-citizens should be able to get the benefits- I’m not really sure how I feel. But I don’t understand why one is stealing and the other is not. Both are getting something.November 9, 2009 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #667272
It is worse for illegals because they have no right to be here! Wait your turn and get in line! But that is no excuse for those who use fraud and other dishonest means to get assistance. Like those who say they are single mothers so they and their children can be on their parent’s medical insurance? Those who lie about income and number of dependent children? Taxes? There are many ways to lie and none are good. I was told that the basics of dina demalchusei dina is on taxes and money.November 9, 2009 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #667273
hss- neatfreak wasn’t talking about illegals. He said non-u.s. citizens. There are non-u.s. citizens who are here legally and may be eligible for foodstamps. Illegals are not.November 9, 2009 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #667274
Wow, now I see it pays to go to the US illegal or not. Tons of benifits for all. But I still believe it cripples a person to grow in life.November 9, 2009 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #667275
neatfreak’s point makes no sense. He’s entitled to free food but someone born in another country who is here legally is not?
As for illegals being able to get food stamps, that is simply not correct. Here’s a link that shows that, if the moderators allow it.
Do illegals get benefits by fraud? sure. Do Americans get benefits by fraud? sure.November 9, 2009 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #667276
Yes people are too busy thinking “How should I get a benifit” instead of thinking “How should I make enough money to support my family” . I real problem that the US has ceated.April 15, 2017 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #1254428
bump!April 15, 2017 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #1254447
Today I cut off all contact with a “friend” who broke his leg. He thinks he needs something called a “crutch”. Shame on him! Instead of thinking what he can seek to support him, he should seek to support himself!April 16, 2017 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #1254721
for an average heimishe family it doesn’t pay to work at a level which disqualifies you for the benefits. It’s sad but that’s how America worksApril 18, 2017 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #1254793
RY – +1April 18, 2017 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #1254792
When people complain about people taking money from government programs and claim that they are taking money from others in their state or country, they forget something:
The only reason those people have money in the first place is because other people gave it to them! The fact that it’s called a salary doesn’t take away from the fact that someone is giving them money. Of course, they are getting paid for “doing something”. But everyone “does something”. The problem is that different people get paid different amounts for what they are doing. And how much they get paid does not necessarily correlate to the importance of what they are doing.
For example, sports players get paid exceedingly well even though they are not doing anything helpful for society. Actually, they may be doing something detrimental to society. Movie actors and producers are probably amongst the most highly paid people. This is despite the fact that not only do they not work at all, but they spend their lives destroying America!
On the other hand, the people who work the hardest and are helping the country the most are amongst the lowest- paid. Those are the teachers. And the social workers, and the babysitters, etc. Oh, and let’s not forget about the mothers either. They work the hardest for the least amount of money!
So the government programs are there to even things out and give these people back the money that the rich people took from them in the first place!April 18, 2017 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #1254842
LU, you’re a socialist?!April 18, 2017 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #1254856
No, I’m a Jew.April 18, 2017 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm #1254879
The highest paid people in the US are not sports players or Movie actors, they are wall street people
Some of them make $100 Million a year or moreApril 18, 2017 11:13 pm at 11:13 pm #1254906
ZD – thanks for the info, but those were just examples of people who are paid very well – certainly much more than most people I know. I didn’t say that there is no one who is paid better. I chose those examples because they are a good demonstration of the fact that one’s payscale does not correspond to his service to society.April 19, 2017 9:08 am at 9:08 am #1255066
Of course, they are getting paid for “doing something”. But everyone “does something”.
This is not true. There are plenty of people who receive benefits who don’t do anything.April 19, 2017 11:05 am at 11:05 am #1255237
generally the highest paid people are sales people, the more you sell, the more you make
Sports people are in a sense “Sales people” they are selling the team or the sport. If the team is good, more people will buy tickets , buy more merchandise etc
Movie stars are the same, If someone is a popular actor they will help sell movie tickets that an unknown probably wont be able to sell, so they are paid to help sell the product.April 19, 2017 11:18 am at 11:18 am #1255261
CEOs are typically better paid than salesmen. So are members of the Board of Directors. And the CTO and CFO.April 19, 2017 11:45 am at 11:45 am #1255278
Many times top sales people will make more than the CEO’s, especially at Wall-Street firmsApril 19, 2017 11:47 am at 11:47 am #1255283
Sports people and movie stars are more like products than they are like sales people.April 19, 2017 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #1255344
LU, to address some of your points
1. What people are paid is a function of their ability, the number of people who can perform those skills and the revenue that it generates.
2. Making a movie is is actually hard work. It requires many weeks and months, often under less than ideal conditions. The salaries they receive is contingent on how many tickets are sold ( more sales increases salary for next movie)
3. Athletic skills at the professional level is rare. There are only roughly 750 major league baseball players and 350 major league basketball players and the leagues generate billions in revenue. The players, who help generate that revenue share in it via enormous contracts.
3 . whether or not they benefit society is the eye of the beholder.
4.the professions you mentioned are important UT are not in the same category. They don’t require specialized, hard to find skills. Generally, the compensation of athletes and actors will diminish as their skills and marketability do. However, teachers, because of unions, can teach forever, get annual raises, regardless of how inferior their skills are. While yeshivas do not have unions, my daughter had her share of poor teachers whose biggest attributes were a willingness to work cheap and go weeks without a check. Excellent rebbeim should be well compensated but many yeshivas don’t have the cash flow to do itApril 19, 2017 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #1256158
I was speaking of Frum Jews. I suppose I should have clarified, but I thought that’s what this thread was about.
Most people I know, and especially the ones who receive benefits are very busy and productively occupied, much more so than most!!April 19, 2017 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #1256922
“the professions you mentioned are important UT are not in the same category. They don’t require specialized, hard to find skills.”
That is not true at all. Teaching is one of the hardest jobs around and requires many, many varied skills. There may be poor teachers, but most really bad teachers don’t last very long. It is very hard to discipline and have classroom maintenance, and a teacher who can’t do it will not last.
In the Frum world, there is often a lot of competition for teaching jobs, so you have to be good.
And there are certainly many very talented teachers around, and the fact that there are bad teachers doesn’t take away from that. And all teachers work very hard!
In any case, how skilled you have to be has nothing to do with this discussion. My point was that they work hard and contribute a lot to society.
“Making a movie is is actually hard work.”
Playing games can also be hard work, but it’s not referred to as work. I was using the term “work” to refer to the contribution to society.
“whether or not they benefit society is the eye of the beholder.”
From a Torah perspective, there is such a thing as “absolute truth”, and the fact that there may be different opinions on something does not necessarily mean they are all correct.
In any case, even if you want to say that “whether or not they benefit society is in the eyes of the beholder”, then you can certainly say that those who are receiving benefits because their jobs don’t pay enough certainly have the right to say that they are working hard to benefit society and they have a right to take the benefits they are entitled to, and should not be made to feel guilty because their jobs happen not to pay enough. And no one has a right to speak badly of them.April 19, 2017 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #1257454
LU, their jobs are worth what their employer and society is willing to pay. Since you are talking your about frum teachers, it would appear that your argument is with the yeshivas that underpay them.
You’ll forgive me if I don’t accept your definition of work or what is beneficial to society. Movies are an art form, and like music, they benefit society. Sports, playing or watching, is a form of relaxation that many enjoy and, as such, is a benefit to society.
We live in a society, both frum and not, where every feels entitled. Being a teacher and a hard worker is great, but doesn’t entitle you to anything more than your employer is willing to to pay or what the market will bear.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but, in the end, it’s your opinionApril 23, 2017 7:40 am at 7:40 am #1258935
LU – do you realize the tone of your comment echos one of the main underlying principles of communism? That people in society with the most amount of money don’t really deserve that money and most likely got it an unfair wait which directly harms those who don’t have a lot of money. The conclusion is that the money must be forcefully taken from the rich and redistributed to those who are not rich.
Let’s ignore the fact that basically every country that tried communism and didn’t end up switching to a free market or incorporating some form of capitalism into it ended up becoming bottomless pits of human suffering and oppressive authoritarianism.
Pretending for a minute that a communist system didn’t lead to mass hunger and gulags, think about these people you are citing as your example – actors and athletes. Did their receiving millions to kick a ball or read some lines in front of a camera lead to the local teacher getting paid less money. If they weren’t given those millions of dollars to kick the ball or perform in front of the camera would those millions have then gone to the teacher instead?
Also keep in mind all that money wouldn’t be going to one teacher in need – it would be distributed. So let’s say you took 1 million dollars away from a professional athlete and distributed it amongst 100,000 teachers (the ratio of teachers to athletes and actors is actually much higher than that but just for argument’s sake…) so you made each of those teachers a cool $10 richer. And you had to take a million dollars away from somebody to do it – is that worth taking that much money from somebody?
You may argue that people with that much money won’t miss it or don’t need all of it. Perhaps, but let’s say that you found a way to suddenly make enough money that you could live the way you want, help your friends or family financially, and donate to all the tzedaka organizations you ever cared about. Now let’s say somebody comes along and wants to take a chunk of this money away (and in effect hamper your ability to do those desirable/praiseworthy goals). How would you feel about that? Would you be happy to give them your resources that you would rather divert to things you care about just because they claim they know how to spend the money better than you do?
You can make the argument that it’s not fair that we live in a world where such people who do mundane things like act or kick a ball make such ridiculously larger salaries than people who do noble things like teach and you could very well be right. But we also live in a world where it’s not fair that people die of cancer (lo aleinu) etc.
Furthermore, Hashem has all the money in the world. If He withholds it from somebody He has His cheshbonot as to why. I think it’s a fundamental lack of betachon in Hashem if not possible heresy to think that the only way He can provide for somebody is if He takes it away from somebody else.April 23, 2017 8:40 am at 8:40 am #1258962
For example, sports players get paid exceedingly well even though they are not doing anything helpful for society. Actually, they may be doing something detrimental to society.
I don’t think Rav Kook zt”l agrees with that.April 23, 2017 8:55 am at 8:55 am #1258967
“In the Frum world, there is often a lot of competition for teaching jobs”
This is precisely why they don’t make a lot of money. It’s basic economics. If there’s a lot of competition that means there are a lot of teachers, and therefore each teacher is not worth as much.April 23, 2017 11:52 am at 11:52 am #1259122
“For example, sports players get paid exceedingly well even though they are not doing anything helpful for society. Actually, they may be doing something detrimental to society.”
“I don’t think Rav Kook zt”l agrees with that.”
Even if that’s correct, I would imagine that most Gedolim disagree with him on that.
I also wonder if that’s accurate? Maybe he just tried to see the good in everyone/everything? I don’t know; I’m just asking.April 23, 2017 11:53 am at 11:53 am #1259121
Meno, that statement was meant to prove that it is hard to get a teaching job and therefore, generally speaking, someone would have to be a good teacher in order to obtain and keep his job.
Therefore, your comment had nothing to do with my point.
But in any case, I’m not sure that I see the logic in your point. According to that logic, any job that involves a lot of competition shoulc be low-paying. According to that logic, Hollywood actors should be underpaid.
I think the reasons that teachers get paid less than Hollywood actors have to do with other factors.April 23, 2017 12:03 pm at 12:03 pm #1259148
Meno is correct. It’s called supply and demand.
If there were an abundance of actors who could generate the type of revenue that the top stars do, their income would be lower, but there are few, so they take huge amounts of money for their work.April 23, 2017 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #1259178
“This sport that young Jews play in Eretz Yisroel in order to strengthen their bodies to be strong young men for the Nation, completes the spiritual strength of the Tzadikim above … playing sports to strengthen the body and the spirit for the strength of the entire Nation is a holy service to Hashem, and raises the Shechinah higher and higher, like the 80 songs and praises sung by Dovid HaMelech in Tehillim (Oros M’Ofel 34).
(Not my translation, nor have I seen it inside.)April 23, 2017 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #1260480
“The only reason those people have money in the first place is because other people gave it to them! The fact that it’s called a salary doesn’t take away from the fact that someone is giving them money.”
This is also not true. When an employee works for a salary, both the employee and the employer gain. That’s not at all the same as giving someone money.April 23, 2017 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #1260496
Mod 25 – I didn’t write that they give them money for nothing. I clearly wrote that they give them money for doing something.
And by the way, the money doesn’t necessarily come from the people who are gaining from his work. Someone I know once pointed out that most people are “schnorrers”. Most people do not actually earn money from doing something that produces money.
For example, a relative of mine used to work for a non-profit organization that helps people with a certain illness. This organization had to hire many people – office staff, all types of therapists, program directors, fund raisers, etc. Most or all of the salaries were not coming from the people being helped. I think most or all of it came from fundraising and donations (and maybe the government?).
This is true of many positions that people hold.April 23, 2017 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #1260500
btw, 25, it’s nice to see you joining in the conversations! I’m not sure if I ever noticed you doing that before, and I’m honored that you chose to comment on my post.April 23, 2017 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #1260515
The example you just brought is from a non-profit organization. That is an exception to the rule because by definition, it is not a business. Any organization that is for-profit (which includes an overwhelming majority of organizations) would only pay a salary if it directly benefits the organization.
The statement that most people are schnorrers is certainly false.April 23, 2017 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #1260529
“The statement that most people are schnorrers is certainly false.”
That wasn’t what I said. I said that he called them “schnorrors” but I then explained what he meant by that term. I deliberately put the word in quotes to show that he didn’t mean it according to its usual (negative) connotation. He did not mean it all negatively. He was including himself and his daughter in that category.
“The example you just brought is from a non-profit organization. That is an exception to the rule because by definition, it is not a business. Any organization that is for-profit (which includes an overwhelming majority of organizations) would only pay a salary if it directly benefits the organization.”
Working for a business is only one type of job that a person can have. If a person works for any place that receives any money from the government or donations, then they are receiving money from people who are not the direct (emphasis on direct) beneficiaries of their services. This would include doctors, nurses, and teachers, as well as all others who work for a school or a hospital. It also includes social workers, physical therapists, occupational therapists and speech therapists. It includes anyone who works in any kind of government office.
It includes almost everyone in my family even though we all work in completely different fields. I think it may even include the lawyer (who works for non-profit organizations) and the engineer (who works for the water company).
Just about the only people not included would be those who work for businesses. And maybe people who work in Hollywood and the sports players.
Please note: I am thinking primarily about Israel where it is probably truer than in the US. But I think it’s true in the US as well.April 23, 2017 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #1260534
Vlasic makes delicious “shnorrers”. I put “shnorrers” in quotes because they’re not really shnorrers, they’re pickles.April 23, 2017 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #1260537
First of all, in the US a majority of organizations are regular businesses which operate for profit. I can’t imagine it’s much different in Israel.
Secondly, the fact that the organization receives funding doesn’t mean the employees are “schnorrers”. They receive a salary for doing something productive. The fact that the salaries aren’t paid by the beneficiaries of the services is irrelevant. The schnorrers are the people who benefit from the services the organizations provide without paying.
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