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Mrs. CTL’s mother was niftara on Rosh HaShanah
Mrs. CTL wants to have the stone engraved ASAP (now that shloshim has passed).We have 2 questions and seek your comments/advice (this is not a question to be referred to LOR)
MIL was born in USA as were her parents. She was always known by an English name, only time her Jewish name was used was on documents such as Ketubah.
When asking Mrs. CTL her mother’s Hebrew name, she replied with a Yiddish name (interesting as Mrs. CTL speaks no Yiddish, nor did her mother).SO, question #1 would you inscribe the stone with a Hebrew Name such as Sarah Rivkah or a Yiddish name such as Sorel Rivil? There is no one left alive in the family who would know the names except Mrs. CTL.
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Question #2
MIL was married twice (widowed twice) and spent the same amount of years with each husband. She was buried next to husband #2 by her instructions.
Both existing stones are doubles and have space for inscribing MIL’s info.
Cost is not a factor
Is it gauche to inscribe both stones, or should only the stone adjacent to her plot be inscribed?LOR, says it’s up to the family.
To number 1, often headstones are used as part of research for families. Such as determining if someone is a Cohen or Levi.
Accordingly, in my humble opinion, I would think the appropriate inscription should be what your late Mother-in-Law’s actual name was.
As far as query 2, I personally do not appreciate double headstone, certainly not ones erected while one of the people were alive, so I will recuse myself from responding.
Reg Question 1
I would put the Hebrew name (As on the Ketuba)Particularly with your example “Sarah Rivkah vs Sorel Rivil” where it isnt really a “yiddish name” but rather a dimunitive name. much like Somone known all her life as “Leahleh” would likely have “Leah” on the tombstone. Leahleh much like Sorel, Rivil arent realy Yiddish names
If it is a translation eg Tziporah and she was known as Faige/faigy all her life. Then I would probably write both “Tziporah Faygel”
Don’t rely on me, but my thinking is that something like Sorel Rivil is merely a nickname of Sarah Rivkah, and not the actual name. Much like Yankel is a nickname for Yaakov, but he’d still get called to the Torah as Yaakov not Yankel.
I think it would be unusual and confusing to put her name on husband #1’s matzeiva if she isn’t buried there.
Please, Please use her proper Hebrew name!
Obviously just stating my opinion but I have to tell you that we had a couple situations where we needed to use headstones to determine names and parents names and nobody around knew enough to know Yankele was a nickname for Yaakov. My moms brother was Marv – his “jewish” name was Yosha Maisha. His children didn’t know that Yosha Maisha was a Yiddish pronunciation of his given name, Yosef Moshe and put the Yiddish/nickname on his stone. Some of these relatives have used these nicknames for their children thinking they are proper names.
It is one thing to put a Yiddish name if that is the given name, but a nickname or Yiddish pronounciation should go in quotes.
We also had trouble finding my mothers father’s name for her own matzeiva because his stone had been made with the same process.wow. took me so long to type that everyone said what I was gonna say
🙂First..I wish tMrs. CTL (and the rest of the CTL Mishpacha) a “nechomah” upon the petirah of her mother. May she know of no more “tzahr” only smachot.
Second: To question #2…IMHO, since the nifteres chose the place for her burial, it would seem that she may not have wanted the other stone inscribed. As to question #1, if one of your children or grandchildren would want to name their child after her, would they use the Hebrew name or the Yiddish name? If the answer is the Hebrew name, then I would suggest putting the Hebrew name on the matzeivah.
“May she know of no more “tzahr” only smachot.”
Pardon my brief interlude, but this quite common saying after a petira is a bit confusing. Does this bracha mean that a person should never again have family members pass away?
I’m sorry to hear about Mrs. CTL’s loss.
המקום ינחם אותה בתוך שאר אבלי ציון וירושלים
“there is a large stone for the family plot with the family name at top, and married last names below.”
How is the “family name” different than the “married last name”?
Wouldn’t wives be buried with their husbands in their husband’s family cemetery/family area? So you’d have your male family members and their wives buried in your family area whereas your female family members would be buried with their husband in his family area.
This discussion brings up another interesting question. Who will mother in law’s husband be after techiyas hameisim?
Also, is there a common Jewish or halachic standard as to which husband to bury a twice-widowed wife next to?
As far as a twice-widower gentleman, it would seem he could be buried next to both his wives who predeceased him.
I’m so sorry CTLAWYER for you and MRS. CTLAWYER’s loss… Thank you for asking for our humble opinions on this majorly important matter.
Here are my thoughts:
Answer #1: Yiddish name; it’s personal to your wife’s mom. Using her Yiddish name, the name that comes to mind and heart when your wife thinks of the name that speaks of her mom’s neshama, honors their maternal bond. It’s authentic.
Answer #2: One-hundred percent, inscribe both stones, but personalize the one near husband #1 in a way that both respects their marriage together, all the while making it clear that she had since moved on to another marriage, and thus isn’t buried beside husband #1.
B’Hatzlacha, and may whatever you choose to do be good and bring good, enhancing your mother-in-law’s memory as a blessing in this world and the world to come.
I’m so sorry to hear about your loss, Mr & Mrs CTL.
Is it possible there is still a copy of a kesubah?
I would use the name that’s on the kesubah.
In the absence of a kesubah, is there anyone who can remember one of the husbands of the nifteres giving her name for a mi shebeirach in shul?Joseph
“Does this bracha mean that a person should never again have family members pass away?”
Possibly, as the Navi says בִּלַּ֤ע הַמָּ֙וֶת֙ לָנֶ֔צַח וּמָחָ֨ה ד’ ה’ דִּמְעָ֖ה מֵעַ֣ל כָּל־פָּנִ֑ים (Yeshaya 25:8)
Many people, besides saying “Hamakom Yenacheim” add on in yiddish “zahl du mehr nisht vissin fuhn kein tzahr, nar fuhn simchos”. Loosely translated, “you should know not further know from any “pain”, only from happy occasions” (as taught to me by my grandparents). Since Mrs. CTL does not know yiddish and it is more than 30 days after the petirah so “Hamakom Yenacheim” is not said, I gave her the yiddish saying. My aunt always tells me that “simchos” should be “smachot”.
“My aunt always tells me that “simchos” should be “smachot”.”
Your aunt is Sephardic?
joseph: no, she is ashkenazic who taught in an ivrit speaking preschool program.
You asked: Also, is there a common Jewish or halachic standard as to which husband to bury a twice-widowed wife next to?
If she only had children with one of the two husbands then common practice is to bury next to the husband she had children with. I do not know what the practice is if she had children from both.
CTL, when your wife was ill and people were saying Tehilim for her, what name was used for your wife in the tefilos — wife bas Sarah Rivkah or wife bas Sorel Rivil?
As I recall, the former.
I would say the kesuba written when her parents were still alive is probably more accurate.
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