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I was debating with someone the following and I want your opinion:
IMO, a person can only be considered great (in Yiddishkeit) if they were exposed to gashmiyus and things not so in accordance with the Torah. Someone who is able to turn their back on things they once did, saw, wore…is truly great.
On the other hand, someone who was never exposed to anything that doesn’t belong in a Torah life can never be truly great. Because they never had the opportunity to say no. They live the way they do because their parents and family do. Not by choice. I don’t think it’s all that incredible that they are so awesome. They never knew anything else.
What do you think?
I think that everyone has a yetzer hara, and the opportunity to become great.
That is correct the bimakom shbaalei teshuva omdim…….
However the reason that yitzchaks teffila was answered over rivkah was because he was a tzaddik ben tzaddik
the famous questions of if its better to be born on top of the mountain or if you have to climb it….
Its totally the opposite.
Its hard to reject everything youve known from childhood for what you know is the truth, but the fact is youve seen how empty and wrong it is and you know you are choosing something better.
On the other hand, people who have not been exposed find it hard not to be tempted by things they see that look like fun, and they want to try it. To be able to withstand those temptations, thinking you are probably missing out, but still holding back because you know Hashem wont be happy, is much more special.
Another point – most adults who live a frum lifestyle, do so by choice, not copycatting.
coffee addict – and R’ Dessler explains this to mean that he became a tzaddik in his own right, and did not become who he was merely as a result of being Avrohom’s son (otherwise he would just be a “ben tzaddik”, not a tzaddik)
There are so many aspects to Yiddishkeit. There is potential for growth in every human being . Nobody is born in a perfect world. How about for example Tikun Hamidos or the love for mitzvos as apposed to doing them out of rote….
cinderella:
Think about this. Sometimes in order to be honestly open-minded, one must have shielded his/her senses from external adverse sensualities.
wow. i had this very question when i was in school. As someone who stopped doing many things (vid, books…etc) i always looked to the self made man as role models and those wonderful, sweet, naturally good people as great to be around, but not someone i would want to hear a shuir from. I always admired those who changed their lives, broke their taavos and bad middos. in my opinion, and what i hvae learnt in school, all Hashem wants is for us to try. If for you it is easy to be good and nice and sweet, youre mission is not to walk around thinking your perfect. you obviously have to TRY to work on something else. One thing i learned that struck me was that, i think the vilna goan had a photographic memory and knew the torah by heart, but studied around 20 hours a day because knowing it by memorization wasnt TRYING so he wouldnt get schar, so he worked on himself. itall depends on your level
The Gemara in Maseches Brachos 34B has a machlokes about this very point.
I think what Logician is saying makes a lot of sense. Someone who is a “tzaddik ben tzaddik” – a tzaddik in their own right, childhood conditioning notwithstanding, and without it being a reaction to negativity – is truly someone great.
Greatness is a relative term. I think a person can achieve greatness no matter where they are coming from. Making the most out of the cards you were dealt with, and striving to reach your full potential, IMO, makes you a great person. This is true no matter what your background.
I would say, though, on the one hand, that a self-made person is more likely to achieve their personal potential than a person “born” into it, because they already have proven to themselves how much they can achieve, and may be more used to rising to the challenge. A person living the “right” way, only because he was born into it, and raised that way, may be a wonderful person, but has possibly done nothing to reach his full potential. Of course, it is entirely possible that he has grown a lot, in other areas, such as emotional stability, self-confidence, faith, etc., and therefore has proven to himself that he has the ability to reach his full potential.
Everyone has an unbelievable amount of potential. Even the most perfect person, who seems to have no flaw, can reach higher levels. Also, no two challenges are the same, and the same challenge for two different people are not the same, either. Therefore, a self-made person, who has gone through every possible trauma and pain that society has to offer, and has come back to the Truth, may have done the same amount of work as a person born into the most “chashuv” family, never did anything wrong, never went through anything traumatic, but is a shy person, and decided to join a community service that helps the poor. Yes, it seems impossible that the two can even be compared. Of course it seems that the self-made person did so much more! But in reality, we can’t possibly know that. A very shy person’s joining a community service can be just as challenging as another person’s going through a traumatic event. It is our personal associations that cause us to jump to conclusions about the severity level of different challenges.
Cinderella –
Think about it this way. When you outdo someone in some way or win something, you feel happy, right? Your ego is fed, and you feel a strong sense of self-worth. Someone who has had to overcome trials and tribulations in order to do what is right and good may have had the pain of all those trials and tribulations, but their ego might be soaring through the roof. Then you have someone who grew up that way. Do you feel like you just achieved a major accomplishment when you daven an entire shemoneh esrei? Maybe yes, but if not – this is my point. Someone born into it does not have the added help of ego in the most basic things. The tzadik ben tzadik is the one who goes to daven, doesn’t get prodded on by his ego, and works to do it lishmah anyway! That is greatness. Of course, the ba’al teshuva can achieve greatness in his/her own way. But there is a huge possibility for true greatness to be achieved by someone born into it as well, precisely because it “means less” to them.
I think greatness is overcoming what is difficult for you. A tzaddik ben tzaddik has things that are difficult for him that are not difficult for a baal teshuvah and vice versa. Hashem will give each person schar based on each person overcoming his own yatzer hara not someone else’s.
cinderella – I don’t know if this dvar torah will answer your query but it touches your philosophical issue head on.
There is an incredible medrash that says Yisro wanted Moshe to marry Tzippora on the condition that they offer up their first born son to Avodah Zorah. And Moshe agreed, etc.
I heard a vort once, that how can Yisro, who finally saw the Truth of Hashem, and lies of Idols, make such a radical stipulation?? The answer is he felt that the way he lived his life is the way everyone should live. That the path he took, by tasting all forms of idols, is the most appropriate path to take on the road to discovering the Emes, the True G-d. And that growing up in a frum, jewish home from birth, being spoon-fed yiddishkeit from infancy, and not experiencing the challenges and taayvos of avoda zoros of the world is raising a child incorrectly by depriving him of the beautiful experience of overcoming taayvos! This of course was a wrong approach, and Moshe almost had his son killed, if not for Tzippora nullifying that ???? and grabbing a stone to immediately give their son a bris milah. We live a frum lifestyle because Hashem says to. That itself is greatness.
vort b’sheim R’Chaim Shmuelevitz zt”l
you can view it here, (by Rabbi Frand)
IMO, what it boils down to –
Facing adversity can strengthen you.
Do you risk it ?
The Gr”a asked the Dubno Maggid to give him mussar. He told him: You’re the Gr”a, big “kuntz”. You stay secluded in your room all day learning. What would you be like in the world outside ? The Gr”a began to cry. Afterwards, however, he turned to him and said: “Ich bin nisht ah kuntz macher”, meaning, we have to do the right thing, not be an “oiber chacham”.
The previous point about tzadik ben tzadik remains, however.
Oh, to be a teen again and think that there really is only one right way to approach life’s issues…
As teenagers we used to debate this all the time. One time we went to listen to R’ Asher Sinclair speak. He was a major actor or something in Hollywood and became a BT. He’s totally frum with a beard and all.
He started by saying Bmakom shebalei teshuva omdim… and then he started crying. Then he said that he’d rather be born frum, that he’s so jealous of us… because there is so much garbage in his neshama and whatever he does there will still be traces left.
Ashreinu Ma tov Chelkeinu Umanaim Goraleinu – we have to believe it and appreciate it without trying everything out. How do we know if we’ll have the stregnth or the brains to come to the conclusion on our own?
Aha… In my last post I thought you were discussing who is better off, the one who does well after being brought up that way, or the one who does so despite being brought up differently. It seems that you are discussing something completely different.
You want to know is it better to shelter your kids or not. Well, obviously if the sheltering is going to lead to what you say it will, then sheltering is bad. And there is obviously a line past which everyone will agree that not sheltering is bad – even secular law places age restrictions on certain things. So the question is, where to draw the line? That’s really a loaded question, because it depends on where you live and what your kids will inevitably be exposed to and what they won’t. There is no need to let your kids watch Nick Jr. if none of the kids in their class are and an honest judgement of the society you live in says that they will never be exposed to it before they are responsible, mature adults anyway. If based on sociological phenomena you conclude that they will sneak off, or perhaps other kids are doing it and they will feel deprived, then you would have good reason not to shelter them. Point is, you have to judge your situation very well; there is no one-size-fits-all answer to this question.
End ramble.
This is discussed in the sefer “Sifsei Chaim”. He explains that each has their ma’alos and chesronos.
I was raised more modern and I saw some of the sheltered girls sneaking as you said. Decades ago I had an ‘argument’ with some teens about the way they were raised and told them I would NEVER raise my kids that way. My answer wasn’t to raise them less sheltered, I told these girls that I plan on raising them sheltered from things that will harm their neshomo, and TEACH them about it.
Instead of “keeping them away” from stuff like nick, jr., I will teach them why someone with a pure neshomo would rather take a pass on it. I understand that you were focusing on the issue of making educated choices, but I feel that there is a missing option. Shelter them by TEACHING them a choice, not an exposure. You can serve them cookies and then tell your kids why they would not want to choose it as a breakfast food. Or you can serve them healthy food and tell them how beneficial it is, AS OPPOSED to eating cookies for breakfast.
You can teach them the beauty of life with purity of heart and eyes, and let them make the choice of exposure when they are old enough to sneak. Once you present the t.v. show as a “choice”, you are telling them that “mommy said it’s okay, it’s just not real healthy for your neshomo”, otherwise why would you have presented it? If it REALLY was potentially harmful, their mother would never have offered it.
Not sure if I am making sense. It is super hard to condense a lifelong process into a paragraph.
Didn’t read previous posts. I think your opinion is uninformed and emotionally based, not with torah values in mind. The chazah about balei tshuva omdim bimokom she’ein tzadikkim g’murim oimdim has many pshotim to explain your misconception, as it is very shver k’pshuto. In the parsha about nazir we learn that a nazir has to be yazir atzmo min hayayin because he saw a sotah bkilkulah. The miforshim all ask that it should be the opposite; a person who saw a sotah shouldn’t need a geder, and a regular person, who hasn’t had the impression made on him, should. The Brisker Rav answered in one line “Si kumpt nisht tzu der nisht zen.”, which, loosely translated, means that all the gedarim person can make after seeing something bad can’t bring him to the madreiga he could’ve been at had he never had a questionable experience.
Furthermore, the Ramchal in Derech Hashem goes through the concept of “kol hagadol mechaveiro, yitzro gadol mechaveiro”. He explains that people on a higher madreiga, in your case a person who was never exposed, have a greater yetzer hara to do the things you’re doing too, it’s just that they don’t allow themselves to fall into the situation where they’d be oiver. He brings a gemara with Abbaye (can’t remember where) who saw an am haaretz go into the forest with an unmarried woman and wasnt nichshal. Abbaye siad that he wouldnt have been able to be oimid binisayon. He explains that Abbayes yetzer hara was so great being that he was a kadosh vitahor, and he only wouldnt be nichshal because he never wouldve ended up in that situation. These people battle the yetzer hara on finer points, like wasting five minutes of seder, because the y’h knows he cant get them into a situation to be nichshal in cahamuros. But the yetzer hara is there, and theyre that much greater. So I think that people who never saw the dark side are greater if they push themselves just as hard as someone who was exposed and triumphed. Exhale.
Oh. In which case my post wasn’t just condescending, but insulting. I guess I’m sorry, but yes, I think it’s an immature debate. The dangers of exposure are clear, the demand on the one not exposing is very difficult – to create an excitement within the system capable of lessening the urge to sneak. Clearly there is no one formula, and no one right way. As yitayningwut has already posted.
bd – we believe in teshuva. After that, a neshama does not remain with garbage, traces or otherwise. (‘course, that depends on level of teshuva)
Logician – true. I’m just semi quoting what I heard long ago from the Baal Teshuva himself. But there are opinions that state that even teshuva doesn’t erase blemishes totally. It’s like erasing a pencil mark off a white paper. If you look closely you’ll still see a smudge. (I don’t know that that’s what he meant. This is something we’ve always learned.)
Coffee addict,
Rashi says tzadik ben tzadik but doesn’t explain why that’s better. According to one expansion that I saw is that by giving a child to Yitzhak Hashem was giving a grandson to Avrohom. So it was because of both of their merits not just because Yitzhak was greater than Rivkah.
I would say that “greatness” (whatever that menas) is usually an attribute of someone who has transcended their upbringing. A truly great person can sit in his room and just look at the walls and come up with a new and powerful new perspective. Or they could be a worldly person who has synthesized many influences.
I don’t like the idea that our upbringing determines whether we’re a good person or bad. We are all responsible for our own actions.
Man was created in the image of Hashem. We are all capable of greatness.
bd – from what I understand thats not true, it simply requires a higher level of tshuvah.
On Yom Kippur we use 3 expressions of forgiveness, “kapper” means to wipe away, the meforshim explain it to mean that no trace should remain.
I would guess that he meant it in a more practical way, like things in his brain or things he saw. More complicated, but there too I don’t think its justified.
Logician- Although it’s true that one can reverse all the effects of an aveirah, the level of tshuvah which is required is extremely difficult. Why would it be better to be start off worse?
ok, ok, I read this thread now. (Or at least the OP).
So, what are you trying to say? That anyone who grows up frum should go spend a few months experiencing all that issur has to offer and then decide if he wants to come back, like the Amish do?
Or are you saying that people who grow up frum should think about life and Judaism, and make a personal connection with it? I do that all the time.
Toi – I agree. Was just taking issue with what bd quoted from a speaker.
I don’t want to add anything over here, mainly because what I believe to be true, I have already seen the posters here clearly elaborate. That goes to yitay and Toi and many of the posters here.
Impressive knowledge and classiness in this thread I say.
“Or are you saying that people who grow up frum should think about life and Judaism, and make a personal connection with it? I do that all the time.”
Yes. But what I was trying to say was that I don’t think that someone who has always been totally frum and always dedicated to being a Shomer Torah and Mitzvos could ever really appreciate Judaism in its entirety. They have only tasted Torah. That’s all they know.
That sounds to me like a different point. It sounds now like you are saying we cannot know how special it is to be frum.
That doesn’t bother me. Does it bother you?
And what does that have to do with choices? I thought you were saying that we are not properly serving Hashem because we haven’t made a choice–to which I responded that I have made a choice.
I’m talking about letting your children make their own choices (within reason of course) and let them come to understanding the beauty of Torah on their own.
I’m not sure what you are advocating. You say to let your kids make their own choice about Judaism, but then qualify it by saying “within reason.” Well, if you only let them choose “within reason,” then what choice is there?
(Full disclosure: I think that kids always have a choice about Judaism, whether or not you want to allow it to them.)
I agree with you that a person should make the choice his own, and not simply drift along with it, but I don’t know what your suggestion is about that.
As someone who was raised in exactly such an environment, I don’t think that it’s a good solution. You need to have a very definite set of standards for what sort of home you want and what you allow in. Experimentation without any framework of values doesn’t always end in wisdom and appreciation of Yiddishkeit and all that yadda. Just “within reason” needs more specific qualification.
Syag: +1
OneOfMany – you were eavsedropping, weren’t you? Thanks. And +1 back to your post.
Sure. 🙂 But what do you mean, eavesdropping?
i had just told MP i felt invisible cuz my posts get passed over, and moments later you commented. I figured you had ‘heard’.
lol, I didn’t see that, actually. *eavesdrops retroactively*
Syag,
+2
Cinderella,
Having your kids appreciate Yiddishkeit by exposing them to garbage (yes, Nick is garbage) is not only dangerous, it’s also the cheap way out. Let them see the beauty of Yiddishkeit for itself, not relative to other, false ideologies.
If you think you won’t harm your kids by letting them watch TV, no matter the rating, you’re making a big mistake. Their values are so far from Torah values that it’s impossible for there not to be bad hashkafos , even in seemingly innocent, “children’s” entertainment.
Now, instead of copping out, instill in your children a pride in their Yiddishkeit and an appreciation for it’s beauty, so that when temptation comes, they will not succumb.
cinderella –
Maybe I’m wrong. I don’t know because I was never the sheltered person with no real choice.
You think you have a choice because you weren’t sheltered, right? Ha.
1) You, cinderella, were sheltered. I’m guessing here, but I don’t think you were exposed to real idolatry, or to things which every American kid isn’t exposed to and is illegal, were you? But if this un-sheltering is for such a holy cause, why not go all the way? I suspect that this has more to do with wanting to be like everyone else, than an honest debate of which is the better way of life. And yes, wanting to be like everybody else is a factor of consideration when raising kids – which was the second point you made on this thread – but it has nothing to do with the question of which way is inherently more valuable.
2) Even had you been exposed to all those things, you think you would be choosing? There are a million other factors which influence your choice. Do you know how difficult it is to leave your family? To disappoint everyone you know? To take your entire life and leave it behind? You think that just because you were exposed to a few movies you suddenly have so much more of a choice than the most sheltered chasidim? It’s an illusion, my friend. If you decided to let it all go it would be as crazy a decision for you as it would for the sheltered girl. You simply think you have a choice, and that is due to the way you were raised – which again, speaks to your second point but not your first.
uneeq – Thank you
cinderella –
I don’t believe in forcing kids to be frum.
Aha, but the Torah does. Back in the day they used to stone someone who was mechalel Shabbos. They would beat someone who didn’t want to eat matza on Pesach, until he did. Sure, we don’t do that nowadays, but not because the Torah has somehow changed. We don’t, simply because we are in galus and can’t. But in principle, it is clear that the Torah does not agree with your belief of not forcing people to be frum. This may not agree with your sensibilities, but I think most people will agree that it is the most honest reading of the Torah and halacha (without adding any “theoretical fluff”).
I will do my best to instill in them a sense of pride and appreciation for Judaism.
That is fine and good as a matter of pragmatism. Not as a matter of principle. There’s a huge difference, and you seem to be blurring the distinction.
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