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Should we take away guns from democrats? It seems like they’re the group that doesn’t know how to use it properly.
High profile murders- democrats
Black crime-democratsWhen have you ever heard of a good democrat stopping someone with a gun?
stopping people from owning guns legally never stopped anyone from obtaining guns
But you onto somethingCoffee
A good Democrat, who is not in the armed forces, national guard (well organized militia referred to in second amendment, law enforcement or is a corrections officer does not have a gun. Thus, you won’t hear of them stopping an evil diet with a gun.About 40 years ago I did stop a mugging by staying mace into the attacker’s face (I was not the intended victim, but a passerby. Before cellphones, so couldn’t call 911
I don’t hide my anti private gun ownership position
he learned to shoot from his republican parents.
the problem is that you used to have to learn at Harvard to become a communist, now you can do it online.
Yes.
Coffee
Unfortunately, like the right to vote, rights tend to be universalDear Ex-CT
I am neither a good Democrat nor a good Republican. I am a private citizen who has chosen to go armed for over forty years and who currently holds concealed carry permits in New York, Florida and (wait for it) Connecticut. In all that time, I have fortunately never had to shoot anyone. I say fortunately because, though I would not hesitate to shoot if required, I have avoided the hassle and possible legal repercussions that would inevitably follow such an action. Regarding your conflation of the National Guard with the Militia mentioned in the 2nd Amendment, I’m sure that you are aware that the opposing view is that the Militia mentioned in the Amendment and described in the Federalist refers to the entire population of men over the age of 18 available for military service and that the Amendment also mentions that bearing arms is a right of the People. The latter position seems to be the prevailing one in most jurisdictions including SCOTUS.P.S. What’s an evil diet? You mean junk food?
Redleg
Evil diet was a typo but the Coffee Room does not allow editsI have little respect for the current SCOTUS for many reasons
I don’t agree that I have conflated anything in the second Amendment.
I am anti- private gun ownership. I don’t hide that fact
You will not change my mind and I will not change yours, but as much as I disagree with your opinion I will defend your right to make it known
xCTL > but as much as I disagree with your opinion I will defend your right to make it known
will all due respect, redleg is better armed to defind your right not to bear arms.
Ex-CT
The terrorist attack last week in Israel was stopped by private gun ownership. October 7 was made worse by strict gun control laws. A fact recognized by the Israeli govt and reflected by their loosening of private ownership laws since 10/7
I am just curious how you can take an absolutist position? It seems clear that certainly there are times and places where it might be necessary to carry and perhaps even foolhardy and irresponsible to not allow it.Ex,Ctl, so far as I know only one Justice cannot define a woman.
My comments are about gun ownership in the US and the Second Amendment to the US Constitution.
That said, as so many Israelis are reservists and subject to being called up they would qualify as being part of that ill-defined well organized militia
I am not sure why xCTL is so rigid on guns. I do not carry, but I have a warm feeling that if there was ever a dictatorial government in US or a russian/chinese invasion, H’V, there will be millions of people with guns to protect us from the worst. Given how much left-wing people are concerned about dictatorial/populist direction of the government (when republicans are in power), I think they should revisit their opposition to guns.
Ex-CT
I’m just going to point out that the guy in EY was a non-serving charedi. Frankly every gun guy in America probably has way more range time with a pistol than the Israelis. I think my hesder cousins who served in the 90’s told me they shot 10 bullets a year to stay qualified.
But I happen to agree with you (in part) that on average guns cause more problems than they solve. But I do believe in personal choice.Always
Not to mention zombie apocalypses. America has way more bullets than potential zombies, so we have that covered.mentch > Not to mention zombie apocalypses.
well, ability to stay a democracy is one of the major features of a stable democracy. xCTL’s family came from Germany, he might have heard what happened with that country.
@AAQ
Have you ever seen someone shot to death in a civilian setting?
Unfortunately, I have a number of times.
The first time, I was 16 years old working retail. The store owner pulled a gun from under. The Counter to stop a shop lifter, when the thief refused to drop the merchandise, the shopkeeper fired and missed the shoplifter, but killed a child shopping with her mother.The second time was a drug shootout, three bystanders killed as collateral damage.
I’ve seen more, but these were more than enough to fix my opinion.
In both these cases the killing guns were licensed.In junior high school we were required to learn to shoot rifles. They still had a WWII attitude that if drafted we should be ready to fight. 1967 was the last time I held or fired a firearm. I have no desire to do so again.
Last Sukkot we were guests at friends in the Five Towns. The host showed me his pistol below his suit jacket when we arrived at shul, told me he’d been auxiliary police for 29 years. He is that member of law enforcement or well organized militia that I believe has the right to carry a gun. That said it made me feel uncomfortable to have someone with a gun davening next to me in shul. I davened in a different shul The rest of Sukkot. There may have been those with guns but I was not aware of their presence.
xCTL, thanks for the examples. But I hear that your position is still more emotional than rational: you admit that you 5Towns friend uses the gun right, but you still were not comfortable davening near him. This idea is not without a source – David did not build Beis Hamikdash and iron was not used there.
But rationally, I do not understand. I may also be not fully rational – for me, pacifism is a movement that objectively was used by communists to keep opposition divided. Maybe I do not fully understand what you are saying – what exactly makes you “uncomfortable” when someone was davening with a gun? That Hashem is not accepting prayers of violent people? That he can shoot accidently in the middle of the amidah? a gunfight for a shishi?
I davened in shuls with armed guards, and nobody seemed uncomfortable. Would armed congregants be worse?
@coffee
I wrote I was uncomfortable davening in shul with the person next to me having a gun.
I consider a shul a place of peace where guns don’t belong.
Being in a shul named Beth Shalom (just an example) one does not expect to see guns in the pews.That is not “being uncomfortable around civilians using guns even if they’re good law abiding citizens….”
Please don’t twist my words. The fellow davener with a gun in his holster is not using a gun, he is carrying. Whether or not the gun is muktzah is not for me to pasken.
No one should have guns unless they have a really good reason to. Every gun and ammo purchase must be reviewed by an independent out of state body before approval is given. You want to protect your house? Approved for a .22 pistol that has a maximum of five shots before reloading and one case of thirty ammunition. You’re a deer hunter? One bolt action hunting rifle, fifty rounds of ammo. Do you live somewhere too far for the police to come in time? A .22 semi-automatic rifle, low capacity, approved for fifty rounds. Out of bullets? Fill out the form with exactly what they were used for. You shouldn’t need more than 10 a week for regular practice. Your job requires you to be armed (security, etc.)? 9mm revolver.
xCTL > I consider a shul a place of peace where guns don’t belong.
that is what I thought. As I said before, this shitah definitely has basis in how Beis Hamkdash was built. Still, we have brochos in the Torah that say that say that large enemy forces will be running away from our forces. I dare to venture that our forces there are armed. So, maybe the right arrangement would be for the packing person to stay outside while others are davening and then switch with someone else. So, you can pack while he is davening.
@Coffee
I have no problem with a policeman outside the shul door who is armed as a deterrent to miscreants and other threats to our safety.I have no problem with people carrying guns as there are probably people carrying them when I am on the subway here in NYC. I am not comfortable with them carrying them or any weapon in the sanctuary. I also feel that it is carrying on Shabbos and should be Muktza.
… national guard (well organized militia referred to in second amendment, …
At the time the Second Amendment was written, the militia were your friends and neighbors. If you had a concern, you could discuss it with them.
That’s very different from today’s National Guard.
“I wrote I was uncomfortable davening in shul with the person next to me having a gun.
I consider a shul a place of peace where guns don’t belong.”Then it would a good idea to not walk into Shuls in the southern USA, because there are many people with concealed carry permits and are in fact carrying guns.
A trained and licensed security guard and/or a police officer should be the only people in or around shul with a gun. (Unless it’s a member of the armed forces on duty who can’t leave his or her gun anywhere). There are shuls where people brag about how “safe” they are because Yossele has a concealed carry. I do not feel safe at all in those shuls.
@DovidBT
My next door neighbors on either side of the CTL compound in Connecticut were members of the National guard and the neighbor directly across the street a policeman. these are the types of individuals who should be allowed to have guns@aaq
‘Redleg better armed to defend your right…’
Different type of defense, I‘Ll defend you in court on that charge that violated the First Amendment
A major problem with the current administration@coffee
I did answer you you said at the entrance. I said no problem with a cop outside the door with a gun. To me that is at the entrance.
You didn’t ask about inside the building at the entrance to a particular room where davening occurs.Insisting on having a hired security guard is somewhat elitist. Not every shtibel or kollel can afford that. Given that threat level is, thankfully, low relying on trained members of the congregation seems reasonable.
There were stories in the news in other places of worship where congregants stopped the massacre. Are there negative examples – someone getting upset at the boring speaker? I see this as a real threat in some shuls.
@Ex-CTLawyer
Then I assume you would have no objection to my having guns, since I served in the U.S. Army.But that represents a common and fallacious belief, that all military veterans are firearm experts and responsible gun owners. Active military and veterans are the same as everyone else. No better, no worse.
@ZSK
We happen to have a home in Florida. The shul we attend posted that it is against shul rules to bring a gun into the davening areas, notwithstanding state carry permits.
If I saw someone breaking the shul rule, I would ask the Gabbai to enforce the rule.@DovidBT
Don’t assume!
That fact that you are a veteran does not meet my criteria unless you are a current member of the Reserve and/or National guard or other professions I delineated.BTW, IIRC don’t you currently live in EY?
My comments are exclusive to the USA and our constitution/laws.@AAQ
Protection has a cost. If a congregation cannot afford a private security guard they can ask for stepped up coverage by law enforcement.
Here in Nassau County we have active Auxillary Police who perform security, many are shul membersxCTL > I‘Ll defend you in court on that charge that violated the First Amendment
thanks for the offer. I do appreciate that right to speak my mind in case you didnt notice yet.
@Ex-CTLawyer
BTW, IIRC don’t you currently live in EY?
No, I live in the U.S, in the Free State of Florida.
@Always_Ask_Questions In how many instances did an armed congregation manage to stop someone in a way that an unarmed congregation wouldn’t have been able to? And, purely hypothetically, if guns were more difficult to acquire in general in the USA would that make things safer for Jews or no?
@DovidBT
Thank you for the correction. One of the non-joys of aging is that memory is not always as sharp as it once was.@EX-CTL – Florida is either southern New York or northern Cuba so not surprising (I’m kidding). The further north you go in Florida, the more southern it becomes.
Where I come from in the south, a large number of people in almost every single one of the Orthodox Shuls carry.
YS, I don’t know of numbers but from the news, an armed congregant does not prevent first several victims from being hurt, but prevents mass casualties. Often, the assailant flees when meeting resistance. I am not pushing forcing reluctant people to carry, but CTLs intolerance to someone else who is ready to protect him is really silly.
@coffee
Not two reasons
I was uncomfortable with the person next to me carrying a gun during davening. Civilian status unimportant to me.I am aware some police organizations require employees to carry off duty. I don’t care to daven next to a gun. Just as we have women’s sections with a mechitzah, perhaps we could have one for armed men
@ZSK
I am well aware of Florida demographics. For 35 year biggest client was in St Augustine. I had both a home and office there. Satellite offices in Daytona Beach and Gainesville.xCTL > I don’t care to daven next to a gun.
we just had the tragic event in UK … But where does it end then? I may be uncomfortable to daven near a lawyer who might have lied and defended reshayim; or near a mamdani supporter or near a businessman who might be cheating on taxes.
coffee > he’ll be told he’s on the wrong side of the mechitzah and then is directed to the other side!
indeed, and every shul has kanoyim who can be relied to tell him that, after they are done correcting leining. Just make sure mehitza is bullet-proof.
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