November 20, 2011 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #600683
Do you think that there is a concept of tznius for guys? And i don’t mean the clothing aspect of tznius. I mean showing the world that you are more than just physical, acting refined… Because if you define tznius the right way, which is showing the world that you are not a body, you are a neshama then why don’t guys have their own tznius standards. Obviously guys don’t have to cover their knees and their elbows because there’s nothing provocative about that, but just like…refinement. How come there are no rules or standards for men?November 20, 2011 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #896978
Chazon ish said the antidote to the yetzer hara for men is Torah study (from talmud kiddushin), whilst the antidote to the yetzer hara for women is TzeniusNovember 20, 2011 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #896979oomisParticipant
Men should also be tznuim in their actions. It reflects their eidelkeit. Would anyone here say that men should NOT be eidel?November 20, 2011 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #896980
Go on halachafortoday (it’s a web site – mods please allow it) and there is a whole list of hilchos tznius for males.November 20, 2011 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #896981
One of the icons of tznius in the gemara (brachos and megilla) was Shaul Hamelech (a man).November 20, 2011 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #896982
The Midrash that the woman (Chava) is from the back bone, something that should be hidden (only revealed to her husband). This is a component of Tzenius that does not apply to men, as they don’t have to hide like women (themselves and there body).November 20, 2011 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #896983skiaddictMember
And there are lots of styles that are plenty provocative, and worn to be provocative.November 20, 2011 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #896984ZeesKiteParticipant
????? ??? ?? ????’? was not said for women (pasuk is talking in masculine), it applies for men. Jewish men certainly have to be tznuim. I think there’s a whole siman about it (in shulchan aruch? kitzur?)November 20, 2011 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #896985
mik5- I’m looking for it but I can’t find it. can you provide a direct link?November 20, 2011 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #896986popa_bar_abbaParticipant
The answer is “yes, but.”
There is a concept of tznius for men also, and men should conduct their lives with a measure of tznius.
However, it is nothing like the idea for women. When G-d created woman, with each limb He said ??? ??? ?????. There is a no parallel concept by men of ?? ????? ?? ??? ?????.
Put simply, men are supposed to go out in the world, and hunt, plant, and build things. Women are supposed to take care of the house.
And women who aren’t comfortable with that should see an endocrinologist because they probably have a hormonal imbalance. (hee hee, Ok, I don’t really think that far. I certainly understand that social norms have changed and it is impossible for women not to be affected by that. But, there are a billion articles written about how women are actually not happy with the new social norms.)November 20, 2011 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #896987
Good point skiaddict, but many examples in Chazal are given of women who are lauded for being Tzenius like Sarah Imenu, and Devorah, the icon of Shaul was praising his Tzenius in the 1 part of his body that must be hidden for everyone, but the other women mentioned are lauded for Tzeniuskite with themselves and and all there body.November 20, 2011 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #896989cvParticipant
cinderella- go to the site and check archivesNovember 20, 2011 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #896990
Shaul is also praised in maseches megilla for having a tzniusdik personality. “V’es d’var hamelucha lo higgid shaul” – He did not go around telling people that he had been crowned king. The gemara equates his tznius with that of Rachel and Esther.November 20, 2011 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #896991
I think the point of the Chazon Ish, is that men who are commanded to learn Torah, only are exempt from caring about Tzeniuskite like women, men only leave torah if they have to work, when they go out to work, they do not stay home, and cook, make the beds, sow, knead, clean the house, and look after the babies (mentioned in Kesubos-the woman’s jobs in the Talmudic times).
Over time social-economic changes have occurred in which women also have to work, and go to the shops, or go to school ect, so therefore in these generations ‘Tzenius’ is emphasized for women more then men, as women who are commanded to be completely hidden, now emerge out of unavoidable circumstances, therefore, they have to ensure there clothing covers the areas that need covering, they should be the ones to refrain from talking unnecessary talk to men, whilst the men who are commanded to learn all day or work should not need to worry about this specifically like women, as they are commanded to engage in 1 thing only.November 20, 2011 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #896992ToiParticipant
mens’ tznius means in how they act, the impression they give off, and the way they interact with people.November 20, 2011 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #896993
please mods allow thisNovember 20, 2011 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #896994
cinderella (are you a guy?) – go to the site halacha for today, check archives, then scroll down to hilchos tzniyus – i’m sorry, but the mods won’t allow me to post a link.November 20, 2011 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #896995
Because if you define tznius the right way, which is showing the world that you are not a body…
Side point, which I made on an earlier thread of yours too:
Tznius is not about showing the world anything. It is about refraining from showing things to the world.November 20, 2011 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #896996apushatayidParticipant
With everything written above, men can (and do unfortunately) also dress in an untznuis manner. I find that the current style of pants worn by some bachurim these days shows off a bit to many “curves”.November 20, 2011 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #896997
mik5- look at my screen name, does it sound like I’m a guy? i’m just curious as to what the halachos are, if any.
yitayningwut- Tznius is showing the world that you are more than your body. You can accomplish this by covering yourself and not showing certain things. Tznius is an attitude, the way you talk, walk, the places you go, the people you talk to, Being tznius is a way of life, not just a set of rules.November 20, 2011 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #896998
i’m sorry, that’s why i asked (you have a feminine name but are inquiring into male issues!)November 20, 2011 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #896999
You are right that tznius is a way of life. But tznius is not about showing things to the world.
It is not tznius to show off your body. But it is also not tznius to show off your internal self. The pasuk says ?????????? ????? ??? ?????????. It isn’t talking specifically about women, and I don’t believe it is talking about clothing. The word tzanua literally means hidden. You can hide physically and you can hide by not broadcasting your personal, deep, internal relationship with God.
Consider human relationships for example. It is proper and even expected that a person show a certain amount of love for their significant other in public. If that affection is not shown then they must be lacking in their relationship. But at the same time, to publicly display past a certain point is superficial and distasteful, even vulgar. Not just because of “pritzus” issues. But because there is a certain depth to the relationship which is so rich that it is not possible to be shared with others, and when one tries to show it off it gets watered down, so why would you want to show it off?
Tznius is about hiding something. It is not about showing off anything, even good things. ?????????? ????? ??? ????????? tells us that there is an aspect of our relationship with God that we should keep private. It might be that there is value in showing off certain things in a certain refined way, but that is not the parsha of tznius, that’s something else. Tznius is about the value of keeping it to yourself.November 20, 2011 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #897000
I really like what you wrote and I definitely have to think about it. I just wanted to say one thing. when a person looks at someone else they have to see something. It’s our decision as to what they see. Do we want them to see our physical selves or do we want them to understand that there is something deeper, something spiritual. Obviously the answer is the latter one.
I definitely get what you are saying, that one should not broadcast anything, physical or spiritual, but when it comes down to the choice of what to show, because something always does show, the spiritual side of yourself makes more sense.November 21, 2011 2:30 am at 2:30 am #897001
Thanks, and you do make a good point as well. People will always notice something, so it’s very important to make sure that they will notice the meaningful and not the superficial. That is very true.November 21, 2011 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #897002Raphael KaufmanMember
SD, perhaps Shaul haMelech was too modest for his own good. If he had asserted himself and insisted that Klal Yisroel follow the tzevuy HASHEM regarding not taking spoil from Amalek, he might have remained king.November 21, 2011 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #897003gavra_at_workParticipant
The statement (Tznius is the antidote for women) is a quote from the Vilna Gaon. And that is logical, based on each gender’s individual Ta’avos (as I have posted many times before, even though the Gaon doesn’t need my Haskama).
Omer Davar B’shem Omro Mevi Geulah L’Olam.November 21, 2011 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #897004
It is certainly possible. Middos are called middos – measures, because we have to have the right amount of each one. There are those who explain similarly by Aharon Hacohen that when b’nei yisrael wanted to make the eigel, he was too much of an oheiv shalom and did not stand up to them.
Nevertheless, Chazal praise Shaul for his tznius and tell us that it was because of his tznius that he merited to have Esther hamalka descend from him.August 7, 2012 4:02 am at 4:02 am #897006blackhatwannabeParticipant
If there is a concept of tznius for men with regards to clothing, then what should a man do regarding swimming with regards to bathing suits and keeping a shirt on or not?August 7, 2012 10:33 am at 10:33 am #897007yerushalaymerMember
what about a man going outside in say a robe and crocs? i know that Rav Wosner says ladies shouldn’t. does that aspect of Tzniyus apply to men alsoSeptember 16, 2012 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #897008DovidMMember
Do bochurim dress in shorts and Crocs on Sundays? If they don’t, then it is probably because, one, they are conscious of representing their Yeshiva, two, there is peer pressure against it, or, three, they see themselves as standing before Hashem at all times. If they dress down while camping or digging in the garden, I can understand.
Tznius is a matter of dressing with dignity and a degree of self-effacement. In the secular world you can see both the extremes of sweat pants (I dress only for my comfort, and I don’t care if I look like a slob) and to grab attention such as florescent colors.
Crocs are OK on Tisha B’Av and Yom Kippur, but I wouldn’t wear them outside the house other days.September 19, 2012 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #897009blackhatwannabeParticipant
What about bathing suits? How do you go about walking in a manner of dignity and a degree of self-effacement?
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